When I read stuff like this -- U.S. missionaries plan 'spiritual warfare' when fighting ends -- I'm just wondering : how can a christian honestly believe, if not blinded by ignorance and/or by faith, that he could convert a muslim, even in ideal conditions, (i.e. a friendly, open, muslim, not taking into account the weight of tradition) ? -- Islam is a more recent religion than Christianism, and Muhammad knew Christianism pretty well. He did prevent the christian objections to Islam since the very beginning. Muslims already acknowledge Jesus' miracles, his teachings being inspired by God, the virginity of the Virgin, etc. (and they find that asserting that Jesus died on a cross is rather blasphematory, how could you believe Allah would abandon one of his prophets like this, you infidels ? ;-) Actually the history shows much more examples (both ancient and recent) of christians converted to Islam, than the contrary (some of the higher saints of Islam were born christian).
Muhammad's knowledge of Christianity is quite in question. For one thing, the Qur'an incoporates apocryphal stories of Jesus from noncanonical sources that were circulating in his day. If his knowledge came from these sources, it was quite suspect. Also, the only representation of Christianity in his day was Catholicism, and one of the cornerstones of traditional Protestantism is that Catholicism was a prophesied departure from true Christianity.
In particular, Muhammad was unable to understand the trinity; Muslims continue to parrot his condemnation of Christianity for teaching "more than one God." Muhammad was either unaware or unwilling to accept Catholics' own explanation of what they believed in this regard. (The Bible teaching is that Jesus and His Father are one, though they are in some possibly unknowable sense distinct.)
and they find that asserting that Jesus died on a cross is rather blasphematory, how could you believe Allah would abandon one of his prophets like this, you infidels
The Old Testament is replete with murdered prophets, and it was Jesus' own belief that He was simply the next in a long succession of them. I was under the impression that Muslims did believe the crucifixion occurred, and possibly the resurrection, but still did not believe Jesus was God and God's Son. I'll have to check again. (Much of the Old Testament is about rejection. Samuel was told by God not to grieve because the Israelites had rejected God, not him. Also, see Psalm 22, written about David, who was a prophet, but also applied to Jesus.)
You might just as well ask how Jews could expect to not convert to Christianity or Islam, or win back converts to those religions, since they are later and have all the answers.
Incidentally, there was a noteworthy conversion of a Black Muslim (Nation of Islam; not quite the same religion as Muhammad's Islam) in my area about five years ago. He was converted after a debate with a Christian and went on to become a regular guest speaker in many places. I think I heard him speak once.
Re:Muhammad's knowledge of Christianity
jdavidb on 2003-04-11T18:38:39
And one thing I left out: the Biblical teaching is that the Gospel was God's final revelation and would not be changed. It was given "once for all," and condemnation is expressed against any who would come up with a replacement revelation. Of course, Muslims would say the Bible was corrupted since it was originally written.
;) Re:Muhammad's knowledge of Christianity
jaldhar on 2003-04-12T06:18:22
Muhammad's knowledge of Christianity is quite in question. For one thing, the Qur'an incoporates apocryphal stories of Jesus from noncanonical sources that were circulating in his day.
It should be noted that a lot of these apocryphal sources are as ancient as anything in Orthodox Christianity. (I use "Orthodoxy" in the sense of post-Nicaean not necessarily e.g Greek Orthodox.) Christians often forget that the shape of their canon owes as much to political factors as spiritual ones. In fact some scholars (Haim Maccoby is one I've read) make a convincing argument IMO that the "Jerusalem Church" (known to the Church Fathers as Ebionites and possibly still around in Muhammeds time) were truer followers of Jesus than the Paulists.
If his knowledge came from these sources, it was quite suspect. Also, the only representation of Christianity in his day was Catholicism,
Not necessarily true. Many earlier Christian movements and "heresies" survived in the middle East long after they were stamped out in the Roman/Byzantine lands. You know those Chaldean Christians of Iraq who have been in the news recently? Many of them are Nestorians (After Nestorius of Antioch who was condemned in Church Councils for holding the divine and human nature of Christ were seperate.) Some, the Monophysites, held that Jesus ws wholly Man and not God at all. It seems quite probable that Muhammed got his views from them.
The ones who became Catholic for the most part only did so in the 13th century and later under European influence. The same goes for the native Christians of India who only had more than sporadic contact with the Catholic church in Colonial times. Most were Nestorian. If todays mainstream Christianity is the dominant form, it is mainly thanks to Muhammed and Islam!
Re:Muhammad's knowledge of Christianity
rafael on 2003-04-12T12:21:17
Muhammad was unable to understand the trinity -- not surprising, as most of the christians he knew where monophysites, who reject the trinity. I don't think that Muhammad ever met a single catholic.I was under the impression that Muslims did believe the crucifixion occurred, and possibly the resurrection -- yes, that's true, but Muslims believe that a double of Jesus was actually crucified, while his body was taken on heaven by angels. IIRC.
Re:Muhammad's knowledge of Christianity
vsergu on 2003-04-12T15:27:47
... one of the cornerstones of traditional Protestantism is that Catholicism was a prophesied departure from true Christianity. What is your definition of "traditional Protestantism"? I've been a Protestant all my life (my father is a fourth-generation Methodist minister), and know Protestants of many denominations, and you're the first I've heard talking about this "cornerstone". Is this one of those traditions that go back to the early 1900s, when the fundamentalists got started?
Re:Muhammad's knowledge of Christianity
jdavidb on 2003-04-15T01:32:37
No, man, it goes back to Martin Luther.
Re:Sects and Hugs and Rock and Roll
jhi on 2003-04-14T12:07:51
Agreed. From where I stand all three three are just sects of the same belief set.
Re:Sects and Hugs and Rock and Roll
rafael on 2003-04-14T14:09:06
Looking closely, Islam and Christianism appear to be very different religions, that evolved from different grounds, with different approaches to politics, art, science, and sexuality. Their core operating principle, however, is the same, but I'm reluctant to call this core a "belief set". As Nietzsche says, in his recognizable and vehement way : What was the only part of Christianity that Mohammed borrowed later on? Paul's invention, his device for establishing priestly tyranny and organizing the mob: the belief in the immortality of the soul.
Re:about Marie virginity
rafael on 2003-04-24T15:07:44
The alleged horns of Moses are quite amusing, too. That's what happens when you have so much faith in a text that you end up throwing away reason, logic and common sense.
