Wow. I occasionally, but not too often, go into #perl. Very busy with family and life. So I go in today, and for no reason, mst bans me and tells me to not come back.
What's up with him being such an irrational dick?
Re:Matt Trout, aka mst, is insane
perigrin on 2010-08-11T18:04:25
If you didn't buy at Crazy Matt's Discount EMPORIUM! YOU PAID TOO MUCH!
Re:rindolf v2.0
pudge on 2010-08-11T17:53:42
If you mean I literally sound like him, then wow, no, I don't. At all.
:-) If you mean my situation sounds like his, then yeah, a bit. Back then, it was considered bad form to ban people for disliking them, even Shlomi FIsh/rindolf. Note my reply on that journal entry: even though I was criticizing Shlomi Fish, I noted sungo was wrong to ban him.
That's how #perl pretty much always was, since it became a social channel. Apparently mst and apeiron have ruined it, as this is apparently now standard practice.
Re:rindolf v2.0
sungo on 2010-08-11T18:04:11
No. It's standard practice to turn #perl on irc.perl.org into a channel that we're not ashamed for new users to come into. This is most of why *I* am not in there anymore.
This is not the #perl you grew up with and it's not the #perl that tolerated all of our fights and bullshit.
While I've not read a transcript of this latest interaction, you need to understand that times have changed and old regulars are not immune from the process. You can come along for the ride and help out or you can get out.
Re:rindolf v2.0
pudge on 2010-08-11T18:22:37
sungo, you're confused.
You're right that it is not the old #perl, but you're wrong about everything else. Banning people who aren't doing anything bad or wrong is not how you keep people unashamed. There was no fight, mst just has a grudge, along with hobbs and apeiron. It's not about being unashamed, it's about being power-hungry dicks who cannot tolerate people who they have differences with. There's no way I could "help out" with that.
Re:rindolf v2.0
sungo on 2010-08-11T18:31:20
I'm not confused about everything else because I helped plan and continue to support these changes behind the scenes. As others have pointed out, a lot changed while you were away.
You're taking things more personally than you need to, but that's generally your style. That's not new. The three folks you mentioned have been pretty instrumental in turning the channel around from the horrors of ages past. As a lead oper, they'll continue to get my support.
Let me put it a different way since nothing seems to be getting through (and yes, you can take this as personally as you want):
You don't contribute anything to the channel. Over the years, the only thing you've contributed has been nasty loud conversations in which you attempt to shout down anyone who you have a difference with. Do you remember the last presidential election? Do you think any of that conversation helped irc.perl.org #perl be a better place for people to talk about and learn about perl?
If you want to contribute to the community in a useful, calm, collaborative fashion, let us know. Otherwise, you can continue being banned and bitching on your blog like a teenager.
Re:rindolf v2.0
pudge on 2010-08-11T18:56:49
You're taking things more personally
See, no, you are seriously confused. The ban was entirely, 100%, personal. It was based entirely on their dislike of me, and nothing else.
You don't contribute anything to the channel.
Shrug. Your opinion is noted, and due to its obvious ignorance, discarded: I many times, regularly, for years helped people with perl, Mac OS, all sorts of things. And I often asked questions and sought help. And people often sought my opinion and help on these and other matters, including, yes, politics.
you attempt to shout down anyone who you have a difference with
Now you're just lying, sungo. I NEVER did that. EVER. Engaging people in discussion -- which, every single time, they willingly engaged in with me -- is not attempting to shout them down. I never, unlike you, banned people I had differences with. I genuinely wanted to, and sought to hear, the opinions of others. That I disagreed with them is not evidence to your claim.
I can understand how bystanders didn't like those discussions, but not participants (which includes mst, by the way
... he sought discussion with me, he got it, and therefore he has no room for complaint). Do you remember the last presidential election?
Yes, but I was not in #perl for that. Maybe I hopped in once or twice, I can't recall exactly, but not for any prolonged period of time.
Do you think any of that conversation helped irc.perl.org #perl be a better place for people to talk about and learn about perl?
I wasn't there, so I couldn't say. Once again, you're confused.
If you want to contribute to the community in a useful, calm, collaborative fashion, let us know.
First, that's exactly what I was doing when mst banned me. You're confused. I was discussing perl jobs.
Second, mst made clear that he had no interest in "letting him know" anything. He said only -- without any provocation of any kind -- "you're banned. I have zero interest in discussing it. don't come back." You're confused.
Otherwise, you can continue being banned and bitching on your blog like a teenager.
Shrug. I am just looking for answers, so I posted what happened here, since I could not find out in #perl. You and others have given them. So obviously, I made the right choice.
Re:rindolf v2.0
petdance on 2010-08-11T19:43:35
Do you think any of that conversation helped irc.perl.org #perl be a better place for people to talk about and learn about perl?
Does this mean that there's actual discussion of Perl in #perl these days? I may have to visit again.
Re:rindolf v2.0
clintp on 2010-08-11T20:25:26
That's how #perl pretty much always was, since it became a social channel. Apparently mst and apeiron have ruined it, as this is apparently now standard practice.
It seems the norm for social forums to eventually adopt a kinder, gentler approach to outsiders (or easily-offended insiders) and with it goes the creativity and freedoms associated with it.
The days of #perl being a social channel are long gone. It is no longer a neighborhood pub (or even gym locker room) where informality and openness are welcome. Asking advice while sharing a beer and a ribald joke are right out. Yes, outsiders felt a little "left out" of the culture, but eventually they adapted (or left). Instead it's now a welcoming melting pot where the lowest-common-denominator determines what is acceptable behavior and what is not.
Pissy, narrow-minded enforcement is now the order of the day, and the deafening silence in there for hours at a stretch is the result.
The message was delivered years ago, and it hasn't changed since. And you managed to spout more than enough stupid shit just in the short time you were back today. I was about ready to ban you myself when you started "singing", but I guess I'm just not as decisive as mst.
Re:You know you're not wanted in #perl.
pudge on 2010-08-11T18:14:27
hobbs: Sorry, who the hell are you?
Re:You know you're not wanted in #perl.
rcaputo on 2010-08-11T18:18:09
He's an active participant in #perl and a channel op. These things happened while you were busy falling out of touch with the Perl IRC community.Re:You know you're not wanted in #perl.
pudge on 2010-08-11T18:21:45
rcaputo: I know who he is. I am saying, who the hell is he?
That is, who is he to ban me for no reason? Why should anyone be banning anyone who isn't causing any problems?
Re:You know you're not wanted in #perl.
Aristotle on 2010-08-12T01:14:50
Yeah, why would they?
Re:You know you're not wanted in #perl.
rcaputo on 2010-08-12T02:36:08
Indeed. Most people have reasons for the things they do.
Re:You know you're not wanted in #perl.
pudge on 2010-08-12T02:42:55
Indeed.
