In case you missed it, a recap: Bush is to blame for the massive foreign debt which has existed since before he became President. Don't forget it! And also, if anyone disagrees, just call them a wingnut and read some Krugman. Take deep breaths, they'll go away soon enough.
Of course Bush is guilty for the massive foreign debt. Who else would you blame? Dag Hammarskjöld? Winston Churchill? Fidel Castro? Pierre Trudeau?In case you missed it, a recap: Bush is to blame for the massive foreign debt which has existed since before he became President.
Actually, Winston did some pretty indefensible things in his day, like burning all records of Station X before leaving office. But he had nothing to do with the US foreign debt.
Out of the five people listed here, Bush is certainly the most responsible. Time to pin the tail on the donke^Welephant.
Re:Foreign Debt
nicholas on 2005-03-09T09:58:08
Although the original report quoted did state "over the past 10 years", so 50% of that time was donkeys. How long has the US been running a massive foreign trade deficit? Decades?
Re:Foreign Debt
jplindstrom on 2005-03-09T18:19:43
What is Station X?
(No, that's not a Jeopardy answer)Re:Foreign Debt
ziggy on 2005-03-09T19:06:23
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_XIt's the code name for Bletchley Park, the hub of UK cryptanalysis during WWII. (i.e., where Alan Turing helped build the Bombes and Colossus.)
Churchill had all extant records burned just before he left office rather than letting the left-wing government that followed learn about it (and possibly sell secrets to the Soviets).
Re:Foreign Debt
chaoticset on 2005-03-12T17:48:13
Didn't you hear? There is no history.
Re:in case I missed it
phillup on 2005-03-09T19:34:05
Is it possible that you are putting words into his post that are not there?
Not only is it possible, it is common.
Might you be a little oversensitive about something?
You can tell if he yawns or claims you are boring him. (Something that can be done by simply presenting facts)
And, if you aren't careful, he'll start resorting to personal attacks.Re:in case I missed it
pudge on 2005-03-09T19:59:16
Not only is it possible, it is common.
If one is to believe you, yes. But why would anyone do that?
And, if you aren't careful, he'll start resorting to personal attacks.
Only if he does first, as happens with you.
Re:in case I missed it
phillup on 2005-03-09T22:59:17
If one is to believe you, yes. But why would anyone do that?
I don't expect him to, that is why I provided links. He can determine the facts for himself.
That is the big difference between you and I.
I'm willing to provide a basis for my opinion. You make sweeping statements and denigrate those who believe different than you. (Aparently, explaining yourself is more than anyone deserves.) The more the facts differ from your opinion, the more childish your responses become.
It is no wonder you like the Bush administration. I see you pulling the same character assasination BS that they do. And, just like them... you aren't very good at interpreting the evidence.
The article you complained about in your post said nothing about Bush, and it said nothing about deficit spending. It was about TRADE deficits.
Only if he does first, as happens with you.
Care to provide an example?
I dare say that unless your integrity level drops so low as to insert false data into the database... you won't find it.
You are the first (and only) person I've shown animosity towards, and quite frankly... it is like playing basketball with a loud mouthed midget.
Lot's of talk, but the game isn't very challenging, or rewarding.Re:in case I missed it
pudge on 2005-03-09T23:41:45
That is the big difference between you and I. I'm willing to provide a basis for my opinion.
By implying I am not, you -- once again -- lie. I am not willing to provide a basis for my opinion *to you.*
You make sweeping statements
So do you. *shrug*
and denigrate those who believe different than you.
Only by mere coincidence. I never denigrate someone because they believe differently than I do. I denigrate you because you're a jerk, and I respond in kind.
The article you complained about in your post... said nothing about deficit spending. It was about TRADE deficits.
It's a good thing I didn't mention deficit spending in my post, then, huh? You're not very good at this.
Care to provide an example?
To you? Nope.
Re:in case I missed it
phillup on 2005-03-10T01:22:57
I am not willing to provide a basis for my opinion *to you.*
So when and why did I start getting such special treatment?
I just reviewed all of our interactions that I could find.
Everything I could find prior to this calendar year looks fine.
This calendar year started with this, and it has been down hill since.
In the one thread you managed to call me a liar, then you lied yourself by saying you would never respond to me again. Which you have done repeatedly.
To me, that seems to be the point that things went south.
I much preferred the situation when we were civil.
So, what in your mind, caused it to change?Re:in case I missed it
pudge on 2005-03-10T02:28:27
This calendar year started with this, and it has been down hill since.
Yes, one of your many posts full of lies.
And you think this makes you look *good*?
Re:in case I missed it
mw487 on 2005-03-10T18:14:01
Thanks for your comments and links, phillup. But in all the excitement of you and pudge going to the races, pudge might have forgotten to comment on my original post.
I don't post too often. I guess it makes each one seem precious. Maybe not precious, but thoughtful. Well, maybe not thoughtful, but rare.
pudge sure is a damn good perl dude. I wonder if a damn good perl dude could put up a meta-page of when torgox mentions pudge, and when pudge mentions torgox. I tried googling:
+torgox +pudge site:perl.org
but it is a lot to look at by hand. I even tried
+torgox +pudge hitler nazi site:perl.org
to see if Godwin's Law applies more to one or the other. The hits made me think about:
How many left-wing racists can I name?
Help me out here... anyone?
And then I started thinking about how the "right" has it made, grammatically. How come they get to be "right"? How come the "left" is left with left? I mean, if I even tried to change the paradigm and say there are "wrong thinkers" and "right thinkers", where would I be? Left with a bunch of right thinkers.
My head hurts. On the right.Re:in case I missed it
pudge on 2005-03-10T18:28:35
How many left-wing racists can I name?
Help me out here... anyone?
I can name a bunch. Start with some of the communist leaders of past and present, in the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cuba. Che Guevara is a good example.
Re:in case I missed it
mw487 on 2005-03-10T18:57:04
Oh Lord, pudge. I really don't have time for this. But I am only human, so just this once on this thread I will let you draw me in to a response with a turn-around time of less than 8 hours. (how you manage to keep on top of this, I have no idea!)
Thanks for your response to my request for a citation of a left-wing racist. You chose to cite Che Guevara of the many left-wing racists you claim to be aware of. Leaving aside the issue of whether we can agree that all leaders of communist countries are actually leftists, I thought it useful to google: "che guevara" racism.
Amoung the earliest results was a link to a site, which said:
"Che Guevara - Revolutionary Fighter
"SHOOT, COWARD, you are only going to kill a man." According to legend, these were the last words of Che Guevara, just before his execution at the hands of the Bolivian army, who were in league with the CIA, on October 9, 1967, aged 39.
Thirty-five years after his death, Che lives on in the minds of young people struggling and fighting against the same inequalities that he dedicated his life to getting rid of - poverty, racism, and ultimately capitalism and imperialism."
Now, if you want to continue this thread and wait 8 or more hours for any further response from me, I am hopeful that you will educate me (hopefully with links, unless you personally knew Mr. Guevara) as to why you believe Che Guevara to be a racist, because I will certainly concede that he is a leftist, though I am unaware that he was ever the leader of a communist country. (google "Castro").
But, I would also like to call to your attention that you still have not commented on my initial post in this thread in any substantive way, and I also look forward to you applying your perl skills to a comparison of torgox postings mentioning pudge, and pudge posting mentioning torgox. Such perl wizardly is honestly beyond me.
Regards,
mw487
Re:in case I missed it
pudge on 2005-03-10T19:25:58
Leaving aside the issue of whether we can agree that all leaders of communist countries are actually leftists
If they are communists, by definition, yes, they are, unless you have some new definition of "leftist" that I've never heard of.
"Thirty-five years after his death, Che lives on in the minds of young people struggling and fighting against the same inequalities that he dedicated his life to getting rid of - poverty, racism, and ultimately capitalism and imperialism."
And that's bullshit. Guevara had some racist things to say about the low status and capabilities of black people, the greediness of Jews, etc. The mythologizing of Guevara is good business these days, but he was a murderer, a racist, a fearmonger. Like most communist leaders.
Now, if you want to continue this thread and wait 8 or more hours for any further response from me, I am hopeful that you will educate me
This isn't history class. Do your own research. You come in here and bitch at me for responding to your post with an answer in a timeframe you don't find to be acceptable, and then demand that I give you a history lesson? I don't think so.
though I am unaware that he was ever the leader of a communist country
"Some of the communist leaders" does not necessarily imply he was the leader of a county. He was a leader of the country. I realize it could be meant in either sense, but I obviously didn't mean it in the sense you took it, as the example of Guevara made clear.
Re:in case I missed it
phillup on 2005-03-10T21:07:22
pudge sure is a damn good perl dude.
No arguments there.
I actually used his book on MacPerl for a while to teach Perl. Like many things "Mac", it was much easier than on other systems. Part of that was because of the very nicely done book.
I wonder if a damn good perl dude could put up a meta-page of when torgox mentions pudge, and when pudge mentions torgox.
I was thinking of something similar when trying to look back and figure out what the hell set him off about me... different characters of course. (me instead of torgox)
Anyways, it seems to me that the best solution would be adding a navigation link at the bottom of a user's "info page" (here's mine) so an interested person could look at all of a person's comments.
You can see 24 of 218 comments that I have made... but I haven't found a way to view the remaining comments.
I think that would be a nice feature.
Something similar to what is at the bottom of the "journal page" (like this)
My head hurts. On the right.
Really?
I've never had a right side / left side headache!
I wonder if that is common...
Mine are always front or back.Re:in case I missed it
mw487 on 2005-03-11T16:02:41
Well, it looks to me that my work here is done. Mr. Nandor might disagree, but here is what I believe I have accomplished in four posts.
I provided Mr. Nandor with an opportunity to realize that torgox had said nothing about Bush in the cited post. DONE.
I noted Mr. Nandor's perl prowness. DONE.
I expressed the hope that Mr. Nandor would educate me, from his personal knowledge, or by citation, about the racism of Che Guevara. DONE. (I get educated in the most unusual places- it is a nice thing about being open-minded.)
Now, four posts is a lot to devote to Mr. Nandor's post about torgox. But, I am only human, and I took his bait. I played his game. So far, he has made 5 posts, and is way ahead of me on points. But, winning is not everything, is it?
I watched him define leftist. I watched him write that I bitched. I watched him write I demanded, when I hoped. I watched him write about lies, bullshit, "shrug", and avoid topics. I tell you, it was an engaging ride. Hilarious and annoying both. I will bet you my dollar against your doughnut that he gets in another post- and it will be the last word from my viewpoint, because I have other more productive things to do. We are definitely into the 20% territory for my 80/20 rule now.
I don't know what set him off on you, but I have a pretty good idea what set him off on me- I called him on his characterization of torgox's post, and then we were off to the races. And I think we both enjoyed it on some level.
I should have known better than to get sucked in, but I had fun, and now I leave. Mr. Nandor provides plenty of opportunities to get to know him on the web. My recollection is that he is young, and interested in music, sports, and perl. Games obviously mean a lot to him- he gamed an on-line voting system using perl. The slashdot mindset obviously means a lot to him, it is where he works. Where points and karma are noted. It must gall him on some level that torgox is way ahead on points. But at least you and I are way behind.
And to me Mr. Nandor is obviously quite politically conservative in his thinking, though also he shows many thoughtful moments. He seems embarrassed that the right is commonly associated with racists, or vice-versa. I am guessing that he would not be characterized as a racist, though he appears to me to be quite conservative.
To me, notable examples of conservative racists would be the Klu Klux Klan, George Wallace, and Strom Thurmond. But let's recall that George lived to regret many of his racist actions, and Strom supported his biracial daughter. Even racists have a soul, and can improve themselves.
Mr. Nandor obviously cares a lot about winning. I note that he usually gets the last word. I can not think of an example where he admitted he was wrong- such a topic is often ignored. Typically a new topic is chosen by him for further emphasis. I would call this action "sniping"- it is impossible to hold him to one topic, we have to play his game. Alternative viewpoints are seldom mulled over. But I expect there are exceptions- can anyone cite the google search that puts Mr. Nandor in a better light in this area?
He has his flaws, as I do also. Che Guevara was certainly A leader of communist Cuba, though not to my knowledge THE leader (based upon wikipedia), and Mr. Nandor's post left ambiguous whether he was talking about THE leaders or A leader. And of course Mr. Geuvara was certainly a flawed individual, many of whose actions we can condemn, such as torturing his opponents and the killings he committed. He lived in a tumultuous time, seeing many of his friends die violently or tortured, and of course did not die of old age with an opportunity to right the wrongs he had done. An amazing life for a physician, whom I would guess was aware of the Hippocratic Oath. But I am unaware of Mr. Guevara's failings that would allow a reasonable person to conclude he is a racist. My fault, though I did make an effort to educate myself.
I am generally liberal, often libertarian, and I hold many leftist views. I use many litmus tests of my leadings, since no test is perfect. What would Jesus do? is fun. What would Machiavelli do? Martin Luther King, Jr.? Che Guevara? George Bush? After those mental exercises, sometimes I even do what GB would do. But not often. And knowing what someone would do does not commit me to doing a thing. Just like George Bush might have considered what would Jesus do before Mr. Bush invaded Iraq.
I have lived during the time when John Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Jr, and Robert Kennedy were killed, and George Wallace and Larry Flynt were shot. I know it is easy for the young to be liberal, and many get selfish later and become conservative. And many liberals are taken advantage of, or take advantage of others. But I remain proud to be for welfare and welfare reform, to be for a woman's right to chose and the state's obligation to protect a fetus at some point in time, against any commingling of church and state, and against making war except in defense. And even then, you would have to convince me... What would Ghandi do? Mohammed? Attila? the Pope?
I remain proud of seeing shades of grey, when others shout out black, or white. And listening to those who talk sense when they talk different.
And I am not above waving a red flag in front of a bull, and wanting to get in the last word. Even if I become a marked man to the guy who owns the place. And fail in getting in the last word.
Take care, have fun, keep smiling, and don't sweat the small stuff. Breath in, breath out, relax. Those are my goals.
Regards,
mw487
ps- I was joking about the headache on the right. And thanks for your concern!Re:in case I missed it
pudge on 2005-03-11T16:21:35
You accomplished other things: e.g., you proved yourself to be someone whose post I won't read past the first few sentences of.
