I got a copy of Hackers and Painters from gnat/O'Reilly at WWDC, and starting reading it. The whole first chapter was basically, for me, "The Top Reason Why We Are Going to Homeschool Our Children." It describes very well some of the main reasons why we won't subject our children to the public school system: it's a gigantic waste of time where children are thrown together for the main purpose of keeping them out of the adults' hair, where you learn little and are challenged less, and where only the rare person can not fit in socially and come out of it without scarring.
Some people say public school teaches kids about the real world; I don't know what kind of fantasy school they went to, or what kind of miserable life they have led since school, but for me, jr. high and high school were the lowllights of my entire life.
And it's not merely that I was an outcast, like many of us nerds. I was, but I was one of the seemingly rare kids who got over it by seventh grade, and decided to not give a damn what anyone else thought. It's not that the experience was exceptionally negative (though it was), it's that it wasn't positive. I could have skipped 95% of what happened in high school and I'd not only not have missed anything, but I'd have been able to fill my life with more good things: more learning, more experiences, more friends, more whatever.
Bottom line: school sucks. I'll help the overcrowding problem by keeping my kids out of it.
Re:wonderful
pudge on 2004-07-07T14:57:15
Graham compares it to prison in his essay, too.
As to history, well, I think I can safely assume part of the reason why you think our version of history is wrong is because of your biases, though that's probably only part of it. Every subject in school, in my experience, is taught poorly. I actually had one very good history teacher in high school, and several bad ones. I learned a lot of good and correct things from the good one (it was selective, but only in the sense that it is necessary, given certain topics and limited time).
But the other teachers just crammed names and dates down our throats and I learned jack. I couldn't even tell you if the information was wrong or selective (in a bad way), because I don't remember any of it.
Other than this one good teacher, the only history I remember from school is from when I grew up in SE Mass, where we learned a lot about early colonial times, since we were surrounded by it. I suppose it was a bit selective, but then again, I was very young, and there's not much point to teaching very young kids about the bad stuff, just yet.
Re:wonderful
chaoticset on 2004-07-14T14:44:28
I'm willing to go even further -- I'd have been better off if they'd just put me in prison for half that time, because then I'd have half the time I wasted there back.I would have been way better off just hanging out with a skilled programmer for a few years in my teens, and reading on my own about other stuff.Of course, I'm starting to get the impression that my school was a 1 on a scale of 1-10, a shithole out of a plethora of shitholes. Not the Worst School Ever, but definately in the bottom 50 or so.
I guess I should be proud that I left with my mind somewhat intact.
Re:Hmm...
pudge on 2004-07-07T14:58:46
What good experiences? I had no significantly good experiences in school I could not have had without school. I mean, there were a few good teachers and good friends, but I could have had other friends and met other "teachers" outside of school, too.
FWIW, I am not presenting homeschooling for anyone else; it's just right for me and mine.
Re:Hmm...
jmm on 2004-07-07T15:46:59
The things I remember from high school are mostly positive. Teachers ranged from excellent to mediocre (but I expect I would have done worse outside of the school system). I didn't fit in particularly, but I wasn't too badly affected by that - I managed to be mostly off the radar of the nasty types. What I did get was the extra-curricular items - sports (generally I was not very good, but I could still enjoy them), groups (chess club, math club, programming club [once a week collection of punch card jobs and simultaneous return of the cards and output from the previous week's jobs]), and special events (there was a once a month lecture series on science at U of Toronto that a few students from each school got to go to, various special events related to math competitions).I strongly doubt that I would have gained nearly as much from an alternate schooling method.
Re:Hmm...
pudge on 2004-07-07T18:40:16
I didn't fit in particularly, but I wasn't too badly affected by that - I managed to be mostly off the radar of the nasty types.
Again, I am not so much bemoaning the bad stuff, although there's a lot of it, but the lack of good stuff. And all the extra-curricular stuff you mention is available in many forms, outside of school, and in (as a taxpayer, in many places in the country, my children have access to public school extra-curricular activities, even if not enrolled).
I strongly doubt that I would have gained nearly as much from an alternate schooling method.
I am absolutely certain my children will gain far more, because the math is simple: there's no significant opportunity to be had in school that won't be available outside of school, and there are far more opportunities that will be available outside that wouldn't otherwise be.
Re:Socialization component
pudge on 2004-07-07T18:36:12
But I do think there is an important social component to school. Even with the negative stuff, you do learn some skills for dealing with other people--even if you just learn that other people are different.
Every homeschooled person I know is far better at social situations than the average schooled person I know, and the people I know who are worst at social situations all went to school.
What do home-schoolers usually do for social stuff?
All sorts of things. I don't even really know how to answer the question without sounding silly: you just experience life. There are homeschool groups that do socialization, but life is social. I just don't get the problem here. My children know people in the neighborhood; have family nearby; go everywhere with mom or dad. It's like asking how you can learn without being in school, or how you can work without having a job.
My feelings about the social skills "learned" in school are explained very well by Graham. Read his nerds essay I linked to above. The bottom line is that school is NOT like the rest of life, and you DON'T learn useful social skills there, unless you are going to end up in a dysfunctional social situation for the rest of your life (such as the aforementioned prison). This is, again, the number one reason why my children won't be going to school. Why subject my children to this? Why even bother risking it? So that someday, if they are in a prison-like situation as an adult, they know how to deal with it? That's lunacy. That makes me sick.
Of course, not all schools are like this, but the point is that at best schools overall provide very little positive gain for the amount of time invested in them, and I want something better for my family. I will provide the best opportunities possible, not let them seek out the occasional way to get decent opportunities as they happen to come up.
Sure, they're a nice alternative if you have no others. But that's where the thinking of much of society is so backward: we should raise and teach our kids ourselves if we have the opportunity to, and government schools should be the last resort -- not the default.
Re:Socialization component
jdavidb on 2004-08-02T20:26:49
What do home-schoolers usually do for social stuff? Do groups of home schoolers get together for some things? I suppose there are still some extra-curricular things kids can be involved in like sports.
Yes, I realize this is an old discussion.
:) Lots of things. There are homeschool groups, as you mentioned. Plus lots of other organized activities available: sports, boy/girlscouts, chess clubs, rec-center memberships, etc. Just plain going to the park is a social activity. And for those who want it, there's church, usually with a myriad of additional activities (which may include camps, trips, meals together, etc.). Hobbies and contests also make great opportunities (my wife, who was 100% homeschooled, raised rabbits for a few years and participated in several rabbit shows/competitions).
Anyplace you go where there are people is an opportunity for socialization. The library, the grocery store, your front yard, your best friend's house (after school if he's not homeschooled, or during the day if he's as lucky as you are
:) ), whatever. Plus, there's more to socialization than just dealing with one's peers. Homeschooled kids often get more chance to associate with adults than other kids. And I've got to admit that as a public-school kid I always preferred associating with adults, anyway. And today I still believe it is more important: after all, I started my job at 19 working with people nearly twice my age on average. The idea that I needed to spend years divided into other groups with kids exactly my age in order to prepare for the real world is flawed. Yes, some peer interaction is great and perhaps necessary, but some training for how to relate to an adult is equally important.
Socialization is really a nonissue for homeschooling. Yes, there are some isolationist homeschoolers out there who believe in preventing their kids from having virtually any contact with the outside world. But they are very much the minority. My response to people who think we are going to shelter our kids is, "Shelter them?! Goodness, no! We expect them to be debating religion and politics on the Internet by age 6."
:)
Re:pro-homeschooling
pudge on 2004-07-07T20:42:33
There are some noticeable differences. Her writing is a little too informal sometimes. But that's just a skill.
Yeah, and again, most of the public schooled kids I know have horrible writing skills. Spelling, grammar, style, the whole boat (even sentence fragments!).I recommend ANYTHING by Gatto
btilly on 2004-07-08T01:11:11
Check out his website and this collection of essays.I'm debating home-schooling for my family. If I can, I want to. I just won't know whether that is plausible for us until I'm closer to the event. (My first child is still a few months from birth. We're going back and forth on whether to have a second.)
It's amazing to me how popular homeschooling seems to be in the geek population. The common thread of abusive schoolmates seems to be a big contributor. For me that's not the reason for homeschooling, but it does make my list of "things that made it easier for me to choose homeschooling once I decided it was a good idea."
I'm a rare breed of (future) homeschooler, I guess. I read Graham's essay awhile back and was unimpressed. I recognize that a lot of (American) schools are apparently quite crummy
For me it comes down to what I believe is or should be the fundamental mantra of homeschooling:
Every parent is best qualified to make the decisions for their children.
It's libertarianism and decentralization in a nutshell, actually. We have the legal right to opt out of the school system, and believe we can do far better if we do, because the decisions about our children will be made far closer to them. Like you, we're not saying public or private schooling isn't for anyone, just that we don't need it and don't want it. We very much believe in exercising our right to raise our children as we see fit, without having to ask permission from the government or subject our children to the public's conception of what experiences every child should have.
It's a little bit like second amendment advocates and gun ownership. (No, I do not own a gun.) We have the right and I believe we should exercise it. If the law did not acknowledge that right, I believe we should work to have it acknowledged. Not everyone needs to avail themselves of that right, and people who do not make use of it are no less of a person than people who do not exercise their rights to freedom of speech, religion, or gun ownership. But we have it and want it and feel very strongly we should not have to answer to anybody about it.
And here's where I get mad at a lot of the states' homeschooling laws (Texas is thankfully much more lenient). We shouldn't have to ask permission or have our kids evaluated or follow an approved curriculum or have our curriculum evaluated or anything. Our kids. Period. Unless someone has reason to suspect we're abusing them, the public can take its alleged "compelling interest" in seeing that our children are educated and take a flying leap. It's nice that you're all interested in how we're going to raise our children, but our windows still have blinds, and we still call that being a busybody.
As near as I can see, there should plain and simply be a repeal of compulsive schooling laws. Schooling isn't for everybody, and it doesn't equal "education." A different set of experiences may be just what a particular person needs, and we sure don't need to centralize the decisions about what experiences will be fed to all children in the country.
Something that makes me sad is that even many homeschoolers don't seem to accept that mantra. Sarah and I were reamed out by homeschoolers on a mailing list a few months ago because I dared to say we planned to have our children reading by around age 3. (Oh, and Andy Lester, if you're reading this: congratulations on having Quinn reading in the car, even before 3! That's a fine little person you are raising, there!) Apparently many folks feel that reading at age 3 damages a child or something. They should apparently go play in the dirt instead (seriously, a parent told us playing in the dirt was a much more important experience to the child, as if we had somehow indicated our children would never be allowed outside since we would have them strapped to a chair and force-fed phonics 14 hours a day). These people are living out the principle that parents know what's best for their children but are unwilling to allow us to do the same.
Seems noone can accept this. That's why I think it's so important to keep it codified in law that noone has a right to dictate these decisions to us.
Okay, off of soapbox.
