Day changed to 03 Oct 2005
13:33 -!- leo [~lt@feather.perl6.nl] has joined #parrotsketch
13:56 -!- mdiep [~matt@bursley-221-209.reshall.umich.edu] has joined #parrotsketch
13:57 -!- chromatic [~chromatic@sub17-30.member.dsl-only.net] has joined #parrotsketch
13:57 I may have just blown our cover in #parrot
13:57 for some reason my client sent my /join through
13:58 it had a ^P in front it seems
13:58 odd
14:00 -!- autrijus [~autrijus@feather.perl6.nl] has joined #parrotsketch
14:00 greetings gentlefolks.
14:01 hi lambdacamel
14:01 'afternoon, all.
14:01 glad I made it on time
14:01 well, the logs that have been posted all have the channel name ;)
14:02 have they been posted publicly somewhere?
14:02 Not all of them and not consistently
14:02 indeed, havn't read about them publicly
14:02 autrijus had some up for a bit. And leon was going to post a couple of them for us at one point
14:02 I've asked robert to automate this for us
14:02 autrijus: you are back @home?
14:02 so we don't have to think about it
14:03 obra and I talked once about making this a moderated channel if necessary.
14:03 leo: no, at finland
14:03 Yeah. basically, if the peanut gallery starts showing up for meetings, they will keep quiet ;)
14:04 heh
14:04 I have no problem with people watching, but distracting isn't ok ;)
14:04 We're distracting enough.
14:04 *g*
14:04 We'll give the rest of the gang another 2-3 minutes
14:04 anyone who has questions should list them off now. But NO ANSWERS AND NO DISCUSSION ;)
14:04 Just a preview ;)
14:04 while we wait
14:05 What's the status of the Ponie and Parrot smoketest systems?
14:06 is there a plan to add a event/notification system to Parrot somewhere down the road? http://www.sidhe.org/user/dan/blog/archives/000414.html
14:06 how is the static lexical pad coming along? what will the PIR level look like and, is it workable or emulatable now?
14:07 when do DEPRECATED/DELETED opcodes actually get removed?
14:07 How far along is the AST model in Pugs and when is it possible to start porting it to PIR?
14:08 who, if any, is going to port UUAG or Luke's L::AG to Parrot?
14:08 is there any rubric for determining if something becomes a VTABLE method? there is currently add_method but not add_sub
14:09 How far can we push HLL complexity into vtable methods for things such as method dispatch and namespaces?
14:09 Wow, abstract.
14:10 Ok.
14:10 If each PMC is to carry their own HLL metaobject protocol, how should we encode the existing Perl6-MetaModel protocol?
14:10 anyone else got stuff before we go for reports?
14:10 I'm going to pick on... autrijus first.
14:11 Autrijus: what's new?
14:11 yo.
14:11 been looking at parrot 0.3.0. breaks plenty of PGE tests pugsside
14:12 at least one infinite loop, which has been commented out temporarily
14:13 (but pmichaud is not here, so moving right along...)
14:13 looked at the new callconv. seems mostly sane. plan to push 6.2.10 asap and focus on the metaobject protocol, aka metamodel.
14:14 at which point we'd need to encode them on top of the parrot object model. I assume no design changes on that area yet -- woudl be nice to know if there's any to come.
14:15 found a neat way to implement full continuations on non-CPS engines. paper author claims will give traditional exception-only VMs the same speed for continuations as the full-CPS VMs such as parrot
14:15 . o O {But it's a bit too complex to describe on an IRC channel right now}
14:15 which is great news to perl5 and javascript backends.
14:15 yup.
14:16 I think that's it for now.
14:16 many more besides, but those are the vaguely parrot related :)
14:16 ok.
14:16 leo?
14:17 wellknown: merged the trunk or better: Robrt + clkao + svk did it
14:17 released 0.3.0
14:18 implemented utf8 substr aka get_codepoints ak c = u[i]
14:18 started coding towards variable sized register frames
14:18 update DEPRECATED
14:19 a lot of people are looking for a better config/make/install scheme
14:19 rafl got ci bits for /debian
14:19 Does parrot currently use autoconf?
14:19 that's it so far
14:20 ok.
14:20 no autoconf et al - its perl only + make
14:20 mdiep?
14:20 tcl's [expr] command, which is a significant portion of the language, is now compiled instead of interpreted
14:21 tcl itself is on its way to being compiled as well
14:21 code has been checked in, but some tests are failing
14:21 some of the failures have to do with confusion over pads
14:22 that's "it" for this week
14:22 chromatic: what'snew?
14:23 I'm going to clean up the one bit in the embedded function generation patch that Leo pointed out and apply that.
14:23 I'm also going to check in the BROKEN document to the repository in the next couple of days.
14:24 I haven't heard about anyone running CPD over the C code; I'd like to see that (but I don't really have a box that can do it.)
14:24 CPD?
14:25 Copy & Paste Detector. It finds identical or very similar code.
14:25 url?
14:26 http://pmd.sourceforge.net/cpd.html
14:26 Thanks
14:26 Anything else exciting?
14:27 Not here, unless you want to write a hack.
14:27 I do. But that's neither here nor there ;)
14:27 Ok. Did I miss anybody?
14:27 Oh. I bet nick's on the erl whirl. As might chip.
14:28 Right then. who asked a question that someone here can anser?
14:28 I just start answering
14:28 Go for it, leo
14:28 first Q during report
14:28 -!- autrijus_tw [~autrijus@220-133-92-49.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #parrotsketch
14:29 add autrijus : PGE
14:29 hey sorry, my keyboard is drinking tea right now
14:29 so lost track of the previous ~5min of discussion
14:29 <- using some other laptop
14:29 autrijus_tw: I
14:29 so, what about PGE?
14:30 just started your PGE answering
14:30 it works in 0.3.0 and did work in the branch
14:30 that means we are lacking tests
14:31 can pugs PGE-related tests be converted to parrot tests?
14:31 nod. there was an effort before that converted the pugs/t/rules/rules.t into spec-based tests
14:31 because that'sa parrot core feature, tests should be in parrot
14:31 i.e. instead of coding them as code, code them as data
14:31 yup
14:31 I fully agree.
14:32 okie - anymore wrt PGE?
14:32 no more... you know who will likely be versed in parrot testing and pge to help with the importing?
14:33 or should I simply commit the specs (string, regex, expected) into somewhere (where?) in parrot tree
14:33 drop a request at #pugs, #parrot, and p6i please
14:33 code is still better ;-)
14:33 Perhaps post an example of the data to p6i.
14:33 -!- autrijus [~autrijus@feather.perl6.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
14:33 sure, will do.
14:34 -!- autrijus_tw is now known as autrijus
14:34 a short note WRT mdiep / tcl/ pads:
14:34 it's an issue of compile vs. runtime
14:34 the initial pad is/was in the compiler so runtime failed
14:35 autrijus: what's the less 'sane' part of new call conv?
14:36 leo: I'm thinking about where nameds will/can fit in.
14:36 as you know, the majority of pugs's test case used nameds.
14:36 ok - a todo item, chip is pondering alreay
14:37 and also related to lexical handling
14:37 okay, I'll stay tuned. in any case a sane pad is far more important.
14:37 right, in a sense named parameters can be seen as prebound slots in pads
14:37 ok - that's what I have from the reports
14:37 general questions now?
14:37 sure!
14:37 Unless someone codes the implementation backwards and they end up post-bound slots... d'oh.
14:38 chromatic: smoke tests
14:38 chromatic: that is the state now, I gather? :)
14:38 -!- Nicholas [~nwc10@colon.colondot.net] has joined #parrotsketch
14:38 parrot has some tests now
14:38 $ grep smoke Makefile
14:38 No, that was me in Pugs.
14:38 make smoke does it all
14:39 Are there automatic smoke reports coming from anywhere?
14:39 Sorry, not able to make meeting porperly this week. I'm on pay-through-the-nose wireless on ship. Sitting in Allison's talk. I assume that she's not making it either :-)
14:39 We talked somewhere, somewhen about stealing something like the Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix idea from Pugs.
14:39 not yet - or parially
14:39 but it's just a matter of 'make smoke'
14:39 which can easilyrun bycron
14:40 end results are:
14:40 http://smoke.parrotcode.org/smoke/
14:40 Nicholas: is the talk fun? :)
14:40 Excellent.
14:41 -!- chip [~chip@feather.perl6.nl] has joined #parrotsketch
14:41 need some refinement still, like more ENV vars
14:41 Heya chip.
14:41 So I've recently discovered that my brain is malfunctioning, and I have to bring it in to the shop
14:41 hi chip, Nicholas
14:41 hey chip. I'll send full logs as soon as we're done.
14:41 sorry guys
14:41 thanks. pls carry on
14:41 in the meantime, let's jump back to reports.
14:41 What's new, chip?
14:42 I'm still on 'go' WRT PDDs. It's still a good plan, I just haven't managed to work it into RL.
14:42 Very hopeful for this week, though.
14:42 ok. what can we do to help?
14:43 I can't think of anything offhand, not for this stage...
14:44 autrijus: I am having trouble staying awake, but that's beacuse I'm jetlagged. I think that Allison is having fun
14:44 Well, Hm.
14:45 -!- Nicholas [~nwc10@colon.colondot.net] has left #parrotsketch []
14:45 Ok. if that's it for the last week, we've got 15 more minutes for questions.
14:45 What's on the for-chip list from the start of the cchat?
14:45 the lexical pad PDD ;-)
14:46 and nameds.
14:46 name arguments
14:46 argh named
14:46 Start asking full questions ;)
14:47 Named arguments didn't have a lot in common between Perl 6 and Python ... is the request that the arg passing should support the Python style?
14:47 or has Perl 6 moved away from the magical pair handling?
14:47 I think the consensus is that magical pair is not parrot's business
14:48 it may go away together or become the compiler's burden.
14:48 autrijus: OK ... would Python style named args be helpful for Perl 6, then?
14:48 yes.
14:48 OK then.
14:48 Curious: How?
14:49 except for perl6, both named and positionals are to be allowed for regular arguments
14:49 so if parrot can do that natively, the better.
14:49 I overhufmanned my question.
14:49 "except for perl6"?
14:49 "except for the fact that perl6..."
14:50 Well, no matter. If python style is a better base than perl5 style, then it shall be so.
14:51 aye.
14:51 ok
14:51 also, is the idea that defaulting is to be handled by the compiler?
14:52 yes, you'll just get a flag that says it was passed or not
14:52 I vaguely remember in Leo's place it was said so, not sure if it had changed.
14:52 right.
14:52 sure, that works.
14:52 ok
14:52 so will nameds andpositionals be simply bound into the static lexical pad?
14:52 the existing feature is good for working on that, you can't pass by name, but you can currently generate default-value assignment
14:52 our current design is taking that as basic assumption.
14:53 autrijus: I'm still thinking that the pad binding is the compiler's job; the arg passing will go into registers as now.
14:53 okay, but then I'd like a way to name those registers :)
14:53 autrijus: .local .param ... ?
14:53 name as in walkable padlike things
14:54 but ::CALLER::* support can wait, I guess.
14:54 well, consider that if you get a bunch of registers, you can store them yourself, and there's no loss (or gain :-)) of %CALLER support
14:55 ah right, but that kind of requires var-sized register frames
14:55 which is the plan already. right. :)
14:55 that's it for this stage I think... we'll see what comes when during targeetting.
14:57 (eof) (but I'd like to ask chromatic what he meant by 'porting' PIL)
14:58 Making native Parrot datastructures.
14:58 PMCs or PMC Objects.
14:58 (And after that, I'd like to wrap up unless there's something else)
14:58 er I did post that.
14:59 I must have missed it; I'll look for it again.
14:59 I mean, there's a dumper from haskell structure to PIR in pugs tree, and I posted the ParrotObject notation for PIL during YAPCNA
15:00 PIL or PIL2 or is there a difference now?
15:01 there is. PIL is the one currently targetting JS/P
15:01 JS/perl five
15:02 it's the "dynamic" part of perl6
15:02 and I think I'll not tweak it too much for this current runcore
15:02 it does not have the notion of types.
15:02 not more than a label, that is
15:03 so is insufficient to represent type-annotated perl6
15:03 but should otherwise be fine.
15:03 Anybody got anything else burning?
15:04 chromatic: even if you get the PIL objects, it's unlikely you can do anything with it :)
15:05 awwww
15:05 without some sort of visitor / tree manipulation engine -- otherwise known as AG
15:06 (you can also write them all by hand, but it's not advised)
15:06 not with PIR assembly anyway.
15:06 but if you'd like to take a try, you can start by adding DrIFT.ParrotObject
15:07 so you can take Perl6 code and emit object trees.
15:07 that will give the PIR-side something to play with
15:07 eof.
15:08 I still have a longish list of answers - should I continue?
15:08 leo: go for it
15:08 We like answers
15:08 chromatic: final note WRT 'make smoke':
15:08 it's of course stolen^Wborrowed from pugs
15:09 and is using Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix
15:09 thx to nothingmuch
15:09 mdiep: events
15:10 parrot has already event handling at least on POSIX
15:10 it's used e.g. for C (NCI) callback functions
15:10 because you don't know, when C calls parrot
15:10 events are also used for C and timers
15:11 but it's all experimental
15:11 does that cover it?
15:12 ok next Q in my list:
15:13 mdiep: when will DEPRECATED be resolved
15:13 RSN - that's it ;-)
15:13 Ok :)
15:14 Q: autrijus UUAG ? L::AG - who does it?
15:14 I think it's molstly a compiler thingy
15:14 Luke Palmer wrote the P5 version. Patrick and I are watching in anticipation.
15:14 parrot classes are created during runtime
15:14 so whatever the compiler produces, it should work
15:14 leo: http://www.cs.uu.nl/wiki/Center/AttributeGrammarSystem
15:15 it's the Haskell AG system that luqui is modelling the L::AG after
15:15
