I've been reading a bit of Epictetus recently, and it's bloody good. There's a lot of God talk that I skim over but there's plenty of other stuff that sticks.
The bit that I'm working on including in my life is "Some things are in our control and others not". In particular, he talks about the futility of trying to change things you can't control (how other people feel or think) and the benefits of confining your desires and actions to those things that you can change (what you do and how you react).
This doesn't mean that if I'm misunderstood I won't explain myself. It just means that it's pointless getting worked up about what goes on inside other peoples' heads.
I've seen many people depressed or angry about what other people think or feel, and it's exasperating. It doesn't matter how much you beat yourself up, rail at the injustice of it all, or call the other person a bastard. All you can control is how you react and what you do.
This is probably tied into my "say what you mean, offer clarification if questioned, but then just shut up" email practice. Sometimes I break my own rules, and normally this results in very long and ultimately futile email exchanges. I can think of very few of these that had any better outcome than if I'd just shut up after message 3.
I was turned onto Epictetus, by the way, by Dan Simmons. "Darwin's Blade" has a lot of the Epicureans, and "A Winter Haunting" has a bit more.
I'm sure there's more to the Epicureans than "pick your fights" but that's where I'm starting.
--Nat
Serenity now!
vsergu on 2002-04-01T14:19:24
The bit that I'm working on including in my life is "Some things are in our control and others not". In particular, he talks about the futility of trying to change things you can't control (how other people feel or think) and the benefits of confining your desires and actions to those things that you can change (what you do and how you react).
Re:Serenity now!
gnat on 2002-04-01T19:18:50
Yeah, I'm recovering from being constantly offended and in conflict with people around me. For only $14.95 I'll sell YOU the secrets of my happiness!
--Nat
(it costs less than $14.95 to print a booklet
on how to advertise $14.95 booklets, right?)
Familiar-sounding sentiments
rjray on 2002-04-02T00:20:11
I've been striving to live by a similar philosophy for some time now: groups things into those I can affect, and those I can't. Work on those I can, and don't be distracted by those I can't. I don't really think of it in the same way the 12-steppers do (mainly because I've had some annoying encounters with 12-steppers in the past). For me, the challenge is in correctly partitioning the problem-space such that I don't pursue issues under the mistaken impression that I can alter them (like fretting over how long it took to get my laptop back, since I had no control over Dell).
--rjray
A Bit Deeper
pudge on 2002-04-02T13:19:07
But *why* is it important to focus primarily on things you know you can change? Why is it bad to engage in things that are most likely futile? What are the costs, and at what point does the benefit outweigh those costs?
Or to be more concrete: it seems to me that there are primarily two reasons for your "then just shut up" policy. One, because it is a waste of precious time; two, because it causes you, and the other parties, personal stress. Perhaps there are other factors, but the point is that those factors, and others, are mitigated by circumstances, which may include whom the other parties are, what the topic of discussion is.
For instance, you may be talking with someone whom you know will disagree with you, but there is an opportunity to learn from each other, and you know that the discussion won't become clanging cymbals but will really be an exchange of ideas. Or, you might be discussing an issue that is of vital importance, and that you must continue the discussion because being quiet is the worst thing you can do (e.g., you might be the U.S. envoy to the Middle East).
Or, it may be the case that you have no personal stake in the discussion and just enjoy the argument, and that this for you is entertaining as well as instructive, so you argue for an evening instead of watching TV or reading a book.
In other words, I agree with you that most discussions are not worth it if the goal is to change someone's mind and that it doesn't happen immediately or soon thereafter, or if the discussion will cause you significant stress. But not all arguments have that as a goal, and not all of them will cause stress.
Perhaps "futility" is a good measurement of whether or not the discussion is worth continuing, but "futility" must be measured according to the specific circumstances. I have had many long discussions where no opinions were changed, yet the discussions were in no way futile. One example that comes to mind was a long email/IRC discussion I had last election year with a friend of mine, who has an almost exactly opposite opinion from me about the Bush/Gore election and the events of Florida. But the discussion was intelligent and calm and rational and both of us came out with a much deeper understanding of the opposing opinions, the facts of the events, and the law. The discussion was far beyond "say what you mean and get out," lasting the entire length of the ordeal and longer, but it was by no measurement futile, because our primary goal was not to convince the other party, but to learn. And we did learn.
Argument and debate is a useful tool when used properly, one that is enjoyable, one that increases wisdom and knowledge, one that generally grows a person. It's a shame that most arguments seem to descend into emotional name-calling and hurt feelings, and that argumentation gets a bad rap because of it. Of course, I am not nearly perfect in these regards, but I keep trying, because I believe that my efforts to engage in useful debate are not futile.
fyi
frag on 2002-04-06T16:34:59
Epictetus was
not Epicurean; he was a
Stoic.
Re:fyi
gnat on 2002-04-06T23:16:21
Thanks. I can never keep up with the Philosophical Football teams :-) "Sparta United! This year they'll make the finals!"
--Nat
