"Homeland security" is neither about the homeland nor security. Discuss.
This is appalling.
--Nat
I follow various commentaries of protesters on a couple of underground networks, and some of them have some horrific stories. A protest last year involving many families (including kids) were pepper sprayed and charged for holding a peaceful protest. The government statement was initially that they were all there to cause a riot. Who in their right mind would take their children to be in the frontline of a riot?
One day I really hope the governments of this world learn to sort their problems out without involving ordinary citizens, or manipulating their armies in their own political power games.
Its times like these I think back to Sidney Poiter's character in Sneakers. Where all he wanted was world peace.
Re:The Land Of The Free?
pudge on 2003-04-08T01:04:13
Yet another reason why non-merkins find the statement that America is the land of the free so ludicous.
Furriners can find whatever they like ludicrous, but they should realize that while America has its problems, it consistently stands up for freedom in the world. Sometimes it takes awhile, but this sort of thing, while apparently appalling ("apparently" because I can't accept one side of the story without hearing the other), is nothing new. When the Union was not yet out of puberty, we were jailing people for sedition. Some score years later, we suspended writ of habeas corpus. We enslaved people, and didn't give rights to women. We put people in camps for coming from certain nations.
And yet, we have defended the world through two major wars and continue to protect and provide for the world. It's just that in this age, it is easier to see our flaws. Stop the presses.
Let's have some perspective: as bad as things like this are, it is far better than what has happened in every major war preceding it. We don't have concentration or internment camps. We are not rounding the majority of people of certain nationalities up. The amount of people whose rights are being abridged -- assuming they are -- is miniscule compared to WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam.
That's likely no consolation to the victims, of course, and it is not meant to be. But as tiresome as the pro-America rhetoric might seem to furriners and others, the anti-American rhetoric is of comparable annoyance.
there seems to be a heighten emphasis in the last few years (even before September 2001) to detain anyone who might have anti government ideals or not of American birth.
If you wish to have a serious discussion, please dispense with the hyperbole. If this were even remotely true, most of use.perl would be behind bars.
Re:The Land Of The Free?
barbie on 2003-04-08T08:21:28
I personally find the statement ludicrous, because there have been far too many instances where the right to free speech and basic freedom, have been taken away. Not just by governments, but also by culture. My observations of these cases has increased, whether that means there are more or just the fact more are being reported I don't know. I suspect the fact the they can now be reported quicker and more widely is a big factor. I wasn't intentionally hiding behind hyperbole, I was just stating how I saw the situation.There are many countries who stand up for freedom, thats why we have a United Nations. There are also many countries who abuse human rights and civil liberties, some closer to home than you might want to believe. The idea of being pro- or anti-American, is a misnomer. I am neither. I dislike the way the American government (and other governments) are handling these sorts of situations. As are many other people around the world, including Americans.
My reply was regarding the situation gnat was highlighting. Yours is a rant against me about war. Perhaps you should get some perspective, try looking into Amnesty International for the kinds of things I was talking about.
If you want to rant about war, I suggest you do it elsewhere and not at my expense.
Re:The Land Of The Free?
pudge on 2003-04-08T12:30:04
I wasn't intentionally hiding behind hyperbole, I was just stating how I saw the situation.
So you really think that there is an emphasis to detain ANYONE who MIGHT have anti-government ideals, or is not of American birth? You really see the situation that way, you were not using hyperbole? If so, then your perception is so skewed it is useless.
There are many countries who stand up for freedom, thats why we have a United Nations.
That sentence makes no sense. The UN is primarily about peace, not freedom. The two are not even remotely related in any direct way. The UN has as one of its minor goals to promote freedom, but these goals are clearly secondary. Note that the only decisions the UN is capable of making that are binding on member nations are issues of security (via the Security Council), not issues of freedom.
My reply was regarding the situation gnat was highlighting. Yours is a rant against me about war.
If you want to rant about war, I suggest you do it elsewhere and not at my expense.
What gnat was "highlighting" is entirely tied to war. You might as well post about XS and then complain that I responded about Perl. They are irretreivably intertwined, like it or not.
And I could not possibly care less whether you want me to rant at you or not. You ranted, and I responded. You have no right to not be ranted at when you rant first. Get over yourself.
Re:appalling?!
nicholas on 2003-04-02T15:23:10
I don't think anyone can blame you if you stay in New Zealand and just come here for OSCON.It might be better just to hold OSCON in Canada in future years
Re:appalling?!
Robrt on 2003-04-02T17:14:46
s/Canada/New Zealand/;
This is appalling.
That would be the same FBI that had an innocent British citizen detained in South Africa, and then didn't interview him for 3 weeks? So no, we're not safe from their TLC just because we're not in the US. And I still don't understand why they served a warrant when he was on holiday, rather than when he was at home in the UK.
