I've just finished The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara. It is a powerful message about war and the people that lead us.
McNamara was in the Air Force during WWII, then the president of Ford, then the Secretary of Defense during some of the darkest days of the cold war, and the beginning of the Vietnam war. He talks about some of the decisions he was involved with, including the firebombing of Tokyo, and the use of Agent Orange; the defense of the indefensible, acts that today would be considered criminal. The film does humanize in some ways a man who was condemned and hated at the time, who tried to do what he considered right. It's well worth watching, a great documentary, with good use of archive footage.
One of his lessons -- talking about the lack of support from our allies in Vietnam -- seems even more relevant now with the war in Iraq:
We are the most powerful nation in the world - economically, politically and militarily - and we are likely to remain so for decades ahead. But we are not omniscient.
If we cannot persuade other nations with similar interests and similar values of the merits of our proposed use of that power, we should not proceed unilaterally except in the unlikely requirement to defend directly the continental U.S., Alaska and Hawaii.
The eleven lessons of McNamara:
...
10. Never say never.
11. You can't change human nature.
Anyone else see a certain irony in the juxaposition of those two?
Re:Not Buying It
brev on 2004-09-17T20:45:36
Your argument is a hypothetical piled on top of a counterfactual,
I've seen the film, it's one of my favorites from 2003. MacNamara suggests that the support of allies is a good heuristic for determining if you're about to do something stupid.
BTW, I realize this was a few weeks ago, but I came across this entry in a totally unrelated Google search.Re:Not Buying It
pudge on 2004-09-17T20:55:28
MacNamara suggests that the support of allies is a good heuristic for determining if you're about to do something stupid.
I am arguing against the specific statement, and I stand by it. I am not saying we should ignore our allies, but just because they don't help does not mean we should not get involved, which is what
gav quoted him as saying, what I am arguing about. It's one factor among many. I gave a hypothetical to show one case where it is easy to see that even if our allies didn't come along, we should go in anyway.
Of course, the silliest part about all this is that we DID persuade nations with similar interests and values of the merits of our proposed use of the power we exercised in Iraq, so it really isn't applicable in the first place.
Re:Not Buying It
brev on 2004-09-17T21:45:25
we DID persuade nationsI think you mean governments.
;) But I admit that's probably what McNamara meant too. However, I do not think the Bush administration's persuasion efforts were what McNamara had in mind. The USA made it clear they had already decided on action and were closed to debate. Opposing nations were belittled or threatened, and others were bribed into support. As for countries like the UK, since the USA made it into a loyalty test, this makes it unclear how much was real support and how much was unwillingness to rupture the so-called "special relationship".
Well! I'm sure you're totally convinced now and will offer no further resistance.
Anyway, you might like the film, it's not just about Vietnam. It's more about knowledge, policy, history, memory -- it's very interesting on many levels. For a more Iraq-focused discussion, check out the video at the link I posted in a comment to gav's main post.
Re:Not Buying It
pudge on 2004-09-17T22:33:47
I don't see how you can say the US made it a loyalty test for the UK. I see no evidence of it. I see the US, rather than forcing anything on the UK, doing whatever it could to help Blair get political cover (such as going back to the UN to try for another resolution).
And Turkey is not an example insofar as what we were discussing, as Turkey specifically was "persuaded... of the merits of our proposed use of that power" before the "bribe" was proposed. The "bribe" was not to persuade them of the merits -- they were one of the first nations mentioned as a part of the "Coalition of the Willing" -- but to get specific help (e.g., overfly rights).
Well! I'm sure you're totally convinced now and will offer no further resistance.:-)
Anyway, you might like the film, it's not just about Vietnam.
Oh, sure. It is on my list.
