During our annual meeting I asked Nicholas a small question ("When will we get 5.10.1" - ok, not a small question..), which resulted in some interesting ranting and discussions. Of course, we didn't find any silver bullet, but I'd still like to get some feedback from whoever cares...
So, say you have a quite bigish amount of money, let's say 25.000 Euro [0]. How would you spend it to help Perl?
In the end, most/all of the people who could do the hard things (like working on Perl internals, releasing new Perl versions, ..) have jobs (and persumably are happy with their job) and no time [2]. So money does not actually help here. Plus, most of this proposed 'jobs' involve some kind of control from the paying party, and e.g. I don't want to spend even one hour a week with such boring administrative tasks.
Anyway, if somebody comes up with a convincing plan, it might be realised if we can get the needed money (but see [0]!
0: as you might know, Vienna.pm actually has that much money earmarked for "advancements of Perl", so this post isn't that hypothetical.
1: read 'project manager'
2: Of course there are exceptions like Jonathan who are a) exceptionally well suited for their "community job" and b) actually have some time they can trade for money.
Re:cat herder may be available
domm on 2009-05-21T18:38:12
For reference: http://news.perlfoundation.org/2009/05/continued_review_of_tpf_grant.htmlRe:cat herder may be available
nicholas on 2009-05-22T15:46:08
As long as the recent proposal for TPF to fund Richard Dice for 6 months is approved, the cat herder post is already covered.
Actually, if I read that revised proposal correctly, the cat herder post is not covered, as the first 6 months are now tied directly to 1 2-month and 4 1-month deliverables. So, unfortunately, the positions of "project manager", "line manager", "mentor" and "recruiter" are still vacant.
Re:cat herder may be available
RichDice on 2009-05-22T17:17:56
Nick is correct - my original proposal had room for this kind of work but the new version of the proposal that the TPF board wanted is much more tightly focussed. Though in theory I still have the latitude to help with some of these items, to the degree that I spend time on them I will jeopardize success on my grant deliverable items, as time given to that work will take away from from working on deliverables. As such, I don't plan on doing this kind of work again, at least over the next 6 months. (This is all assuming that the grant application is approved and other terms that are mutually acceptable are arrived at. This won't be known for a few days.)Regarding domm's original question - 25.000 euros is substantial funding and I think it is excellent that Vienna.pm has this level of resources that it wants to use to support the Perl community and its projects. But as I think you (and Nick) correctly identify, it isn't _enough_ to pay for a large-scale effort, e.g. commitment to fund a senior and a junior for a long-term basis (2+ years?), which is probably the minimum plan that has any kind of sustainability and critical mass.
However, while it can't pay for this kind of effort directly, it can be a step in _finding_ funds for this level of support effort. Basically, I think Perl needs a business development (a.k.a. sales) person. Think of it this way: how many booking.com level donations could be found, if only someone was out there looking for them? How many Hague level donations? 25.000 euro doesn't pay for this person either, but it may pay for their plane tickets and hotel stays for a number of months. Four of each and you've got a sufficient level of funding to pay for the senior, junior, the bizdev person and their support costs for 2 years.
Anyhow, I'm not suggesting that this money be put towards this. It would be ill-advised to go forward with this kind of effort before a solid analysis was performed and a plan was put in place. But it seemed like a good opportunity for me to introduce this way of thinking to a larger audience.
Re:cat herder may be available
autarch on 2009-05-22T00:19:32
If the numerous small project approach is to succeed, it needs to work because the recipients are self-motivated. I completed my grant without anyone nagging me or setting deadlines, and that should be the rule.
If people don't do the work they promise, they shouldn't get the money. Hopefully the money + getting shit done is a sufficient carrot.
Re:cat herder may be available
nicholas on 2009-05-22T15:51:25
I agree with everything you say. However, I'd like to add that to succeed it also needs numerous applications. This Q2, there are only 4 proposals total, and several feel rather weak. This is in marked contrast to 12 months ago, where in Q2 2008 there were 17 , many of which were stronger than any of the current 4. It surprises me that there are fewer applications now, with the global economy supposedly weaker. I would have expected more.
Re:cat herder may be available
chorny on 2009-05-22T16:07:38
I suppose this is because of date mismatch. "Submit a grant proposal by May 31".
Re:cat herder may be available
nicholas on 2009-05-22T16:22:34
Good point. However, there were "only" 13 in Q1 2009, so numbers were down even then. Then again, I'm no stats wizz, but I suspect that the number of data points is too small to really spot trends through the noise.
There has been a lot of grousing lately about there not being a uber-slick place (Web 2.0-ish) where Perl people can blog. It would be nice if some monies could go towards creating such a place.
Re:A new Perl blogging site...
mpeters on 2009-05-22T14:21:02
I've been playing around with some ideas at my job that might lead to such a place. Give me a few more weeks and maybe I'll have something to share come YAPC::NARe:A new Perl blogging site...
sjn on 2009-05-24T13:14:18
Oh please, whatever you do: Try to build on and improve what use.perl.org gives. There's a significant and influential community on use.perl, and THAT is the real vallue we need to keep and grow.
Sure.
And even if you would, what would you be able to do?
Write large chunks of the Perl 6 core libraries.
Re:I'm game
nicholas on 2009-05-25T12:11:59
It strikes me that that could also be funded by a Hague grant - have you considered that route for funding? (Note, I have nothing to do with applications for or authorisation of grants from either source.)
Re:I'm game
domm on 2009-05-26T06:09:32
Like Nicholas I also think that Perl 6 development is way better funded (or the funding works better) than Perl 5. For example, Vienna.pm already funds a week a day of Jonathans Rakudo hacking. And AFAIK some of the Hague grant money is spend (or was spend?) on other Perl 6 / Parrot / Rakudo projects.
So I'd rather spend money on Perl 5... (but that's only my opinion, not Vienna.pm's!)
One project I'd love to see is a community-authortitative way to manage micro-donations and micro-grants.
The goal with all this is to let the next group of people with spare funds have NO problems in finding good and trustworthy places to invest their money.
Re:Bootstrapping problems? Then improve the straps
nicholas on 2009-05-25T12:05:51
But do you love it enough to help (try to) create it? There doesn't seem to be a shortage of initial good ideas, but there does seem to be a shortage of people with the time and motivation to drive an idea forwards to become a functional system. Without them, ideas fester.
