On the offchance that someone reads my journal and not TorgoX's or jdavidb's - please read HOWTO Encourage Women in Linux.
And then act on it.
While I think the document is nice and hits a few important points, it cannot be universally applied as the scapegoat for why there aren't more women in computing and particularly in opensource. For years people around these parts have moaned and groaned about why there aren't more women, even Larry made a keynote including such desires for more women in Perl at YAPC this year...but you know, talk is cheap and when you say one thing but do another it's worth even less.
Saying you want more women around these parts while having one of the most publicly visible perl personalities going about praising Hooters is not a message to women that says you're in touch with your inner misogynistic asshole. I think there are a lot more women around than the statistics would indicate, they just prefer the company of other people.
Say what you mean and do what you say.
Re:less sexism with more soul-searching honesty :)
autarch on 2002-11-12T17:41:52
I think the document actually touches on this issue, but maybe it's just too subtle. There is a bit about not being two-faced and only being respectful when you think you're being listened to.
The problem here is that while _I_ think Randall is an immature twit for his obsession with Hooters, there's not much I can do about it except to say that publicly.
I'm not sure what the best way to handle Randall is. I don't think we want to "kick him out" of the Perl community. I think the best way to handle it is to make a point of challenging his sexism and not going along with it. He needs to understand that some lines of discussion just aren't acceptable.Re:less sexism with more soul-searching honesty :)
pudge on 2002-11-17T14:07:47
I'm not sure what the best way to handle Randall is. I don't think we want to "kick him out" of the Perl community. I think the best way to handle it is to make a point of challenging his sexism and not going along with it. He needs to understand that some lines of discussion just aren't acceptable.
Kick him out?? That you would even suppose this might even possibly be a worthwhile course of direction is incredible. How about simply disagreeing with him, publicly if you feel it is necessary, and then getting on with your own life?
I think your views on many things are insane, like your views on American politics, racism, etc. Why shouldn't I try to kick you out? I think you need to understand that some lines of discussion just aren't acceptable.
Oh right, that sort of line of reasoning doesn't work with you, because YOU'RE RIGHT and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
To that, I say, bugger off.Re:less sexism with more soul-searching honesty :)
autarch on 2002-11-17T17:02:58
Kick him out?? That you would even suppose this might even possibly be a worthwhile course of direction is incredible. How about simply disagreeing with him, publicly if you feel it is necessary, and then getting on with your own life?
Uh, I wasn't supposing this was worthwhile or not. I was simply saying that it wasn't possible (and actually, I don't think it's the right response in this case).
But what the heck, why not address the general question of how to "police" a community? If a community feels that an individual is so disruptive/destructive/etc then I don't see the problem with deliberately excluding them, when all other measures fail.
Moreover, some actions will de facto end up evicting folks from a community. When the p5p list finally decided to stop the ridiculous fighting on the list, and Tom C was no longer able to fight with Ilya nonstop, he basically disappeared. Now, I don't think anyone said "let's kick Tom C out", but that was the _effective_ result of the decision to moderate the p5p list, and I strongly doubt that anyone was surprised by this.
Re:less sexism with more soul-searching honesty :)
pudge on 2002-11-17T17:39:49
Uh, I wasn't supposing this was worthwhile or not. I was simply saying that it wasn't possible (and actually, I don't think it's the right response in this case).
I won't apologize for reading I don't think we want to "kick him out" of the Perl community as a statement of it possibly being a course of action the community might take.
But what the heck, why not address the general question of how to "police" a community?
Because none of us has absolutely any authority to do so. And if we do, I'd bet you'd be voted off the island before he would. Maybe me too, but that's fine.
When the p5p list finally decided to stop the ridiculous fighting on the list, and Tom C was no longer able to fight with Ilya nonstop, he basically disappeared. Now, I don't think anyone said "let's kick Tom C out", but that was the _effective_ result of the decision to moderate the p5p list, and I strongly doubt that anyone was surprised by this.
Please stop grossly mischaracterizing something you obviously know nothing about. Thanks.
Re:less sexism with more soul-searching honesty :)
chromatic on 2002-11-12T17:46:19
Saying you want more women around these parts while having one of the most publicly visible perl personalities going about praising Hooters is not a message to women that says you're in touch with your inner misogynistic asshole.I'm really more of a misogynist crank, if you have to label me, but anyone -- male or female -- who will judge a whole community based on the actions of one member is not going to be happy in any community.
What would you recommend? (That's a serious question by the way.)
Re:less sexism with more soul-searching honesty :)
hfb on 2002-11-12T20:01:07
Well, perception is reality and considering that the most obvious example I mentioned is not only prominent but also at the entry gates where beginners wade in he has an effect whether anyone is willing to acknowledge it or not. It won't keep women from trying perl or using it but it most certainly helps to keep them out of social interactions. I've rarely had a female coworker and I can't count the number of times that the guys would plan a 'group outing' to a strip club or somesuch which I declined to go along on as it's hard to take guys seriously who say they treat you as an equal yet go to titty bars. Besides, it's nothing I haven't seen before.
But I'm not picking on just him, he's just the easiest and most obvious to pick on...like a giant zit on your forehead. I'm not of the opinion that women want to be treated differently but as coworkers in whatever it may be and there are few around these parts that say what they mean and do what they say not to mention the average maturity level in dealing with women is, in my estimation, about 12. Having glaring, exhalted examples of such egregious misogyny isn't rolling out the welcome mat to either gender.
Personally, I will forever remain doing whatever I choose to do but it gets my panties in a bunch whenever I see yet another plaintive plea for more women in the community without anything more than just words. Words have meaning but they tend to have more effect when they correlate with actions. These words have been repeated year after year after year and they don't mean jack because noone is willing to really do the hard social policing of those who are happy with the status quo.
I'll believe that the perl community wants more women and people in general when I see certain behaviours discouraged and no longer tolerated. When actions make me believe it's more than just a load of PC chatter from Larry on down the line.
You should not pick out merlyn just because he digs hooters bars, he doesn't make a big deal out of it, in fact you wouldn't even be aware of it from most of his work. Its mentioned a lot in his personal homepage, but it doesn't affect new perl hackers - just as the 'Perl is my bitch' t-shirt wouldn't/didn't affect new corporate backers.
In the 3 years I've worked professionally in IT in the UK I have never once seen anyone suggest going to a strip joint or hooters or gawk at Page 3 of the Sun. Even when I worked 50 yards from a strip bar in shoreditch no-one even suggested such a thing, regardless of whether there was a women present.
When I worked as a cleaner in a hospital I received lots of untoward comments and sexist reactions and was totally ostrasized by the all-female nursing staff. When I worked in a pub and nightclub there was a lot of sexism and mysogynism but despite this there were as many women as men.
The problem with IT and Hacking Code For Fun is that Girls just don't dig it. As long as it is perceived as geeky, nerdish and math/engineering oriented we are going to be mostly-male.
My Degree Course at university was 99% male, the Law course was 50/50 and the Psychology course was 75% female.
Men and women on the whole like different things, this is exagerated because women would rather work with other women (on the whole - none of my female friends would choose to work in an all-male office or department or industry), and I don't fancy going into nursing or temping and not having any male colleagues to relate to.
Re:sexism is a red herring
autarch on 2002-11-13T18:31:58
To be honest, I have seen very very very little sexism in the IT workplace, and only a little in the perl community.
That's cause you're a man, and you can safely (and I mean that both as in comfort and physical safety) ignore it, and you no doubt just tune it out because it doesn't really affect you.
I think the testosterone can get a bit much on IRC, but that occurs in because of the lack of feminine irc'ers not the other way around.
So you think the attitude on IRC doesn't drive away women? And if women just magically showed up it would get better. No way. It does drive women away, and that is why they don't show up.
Whats more, I don't see how blokes swooning over buffy or willow is sexist when women will behave in the same way over brad pitt or some hunky doctor in ER.
Being anti-sexist is not a simple matter of "what's good for the goose is good for the gander." Because men are in positions of power, because men rape women far, far more than vice versa, because women are often frightened of men, because of all of these things men have a greater burden to act in a non-threatening, accepting way. Don't like it, too bad. Deal.
Now, this isn't to say you can't ever talk about your favorite movie star crush with female co-workers, but you should get to know them first and make sure they're comfortable with it. And don't forget, tone is everything. It's one thing to say "Buffy is so cute" and another to say "I'd like to f*ck her so hard she screams".
In the 3 years I've worked professionally in IT in the UK I have never once seen anyone suggest going to a strip joint or hooters or gawk at Page 3 of the Sun. Even when I worked 50 yards from a strip bar in shoreditch no-one even suggested such a thing, regardless of whether there was a women present.
At one of my previous jobs at a place called Digital River (I'll name names, dammit), which had quite a number of women coders, not to mention women in other positions, they brought in an exotic dancer (not quite a stripper) for one VP's birthday. She did her act right in the middle of the working space.
The problem with IT and Hacking Code For Fun is that Girls just don't dig it. As long as it is perceived as geeky, nerdish and math/engineering oriented we are going to be mostly-male.
Simply put, bullshit. First of all, there's nothing biological keeping women away from coding, so it must be something sociological. If you don't think men go out of their way to make sure that coding is perceived as geeky/nerdy, at least in part to protect their turf, then you are not paying attention. If the men in this field were welcoming of women, there'd be more women working in it, plain and simple.Re:sexism is a red herring
TeeJay on 2002-11-14T09:51:22
yeah, right - Of course I'd turn a blind eye. Bullshit, what kind of oaf do you think I am? Given the low number of women I'd notice if anything was going on anywhere near me.I sat next to 2 women when I worked at a global corporation, one was a senior project manager and the other was a senior developer and I spent a lot of time talking to both, at work and socially. The only other woman in the department was further away amongst some of the older developers. I never saw a sexist joke or act the 14 months I worked there.
When I worked in shoreditch there were a lot of female designers (no developers) working closely with the developers. Not once did I see a problem there, it was bigger and I was probably pre-occupied but I was close friends with many people there of both sexes and would have picked something up.
As for IRC, it can be male-focussed, that means talking primarily about beer rather than strippers and swooning over buffy rather than text pr0n. There are girls I've seen on the london.pm mailing list and on the irc channel. Nobody has ever been sexist towards them when I was there.
Fear of rape has fuck all to do with women not working in IT. I have worked for as nearly as many female superiors as male both in IT and elsewhere.
The problem lies fair and square in that IT doesn't have appeal to women. Women *are* biologically and psychologically different - to pretend otherwise is foolish.
At school girls are uninterested in IT - why? its not because they fear a mysoginistic office full of potential rapists, its because it seems dull, anti-social and math/science oriented.
Engineering and sciences have the same problem. Look at universities and who enroles into different courses. Some courses have an even mix, but social and medical sciences will have a high proportion of women, as will humanities, law, etc.
Looking at geography, english, etc - the more academic subjects will be fairly evenly mixed possibly with more female than male students.
Looking at engineering, Math, physics, computing, mostly Men. Even tho business degrees that would lead to women working in exactly the same office with the same raping dirty talking bullys that you reckon scare them away.
Re:sexism is a red herring
autarch on 2002-11-14T21:13:13
yeah, right - Of course I'd turn a blind eye. Bullshit, what kind of oaf do you think I am? Given the low number of women I'd notice if anything was going on anywhere near me.
I think you're a male kind of oaf, the kind that is created by a culture steeped in sexism to the point where despite our best intentions, some of our actions/views/whatever will nonetheless be sexist. This wasn't a particular dig at you. My point is that men are not necessarily going to notice things that offend/scare/bother women, unless we actively try to think about it.
I'm not going to argue particular anecdotes with you. Like I said, I've seen examples of sexism is my workplaces in the past. The fact that you haven't either indicates that you worked in an atypical workplace, which is certainly possible, or that you just didn't notice problems, which I think is more likely.
Fear of rape has fuck all to do with women not working in IT. I have worked for as nearly as many female superiors as male both in IT and elsewhere.
You completely missed my point here. I was not saying "women are afraid of being raped so they won't work in IT", which is clearly a ridiculous statement, and a nice straw man for you to attack. What I was saying is that some behaviours men exhibit that go beyond being offensive to actually being frightening to women, and this can be an additional reason for them to avoid mostly-male situations.
The problem lies fair and square in that IT doesn't have appeal to women. Women *are* biologically and psychologically different - to pretend otherwise is foolish.
I didn't say women weren't different biologically or psychologically. But I really don't think the former has much to do with women not being in IT. As to psychological differences, I think that these come from nurture, not nature. Girls are encouraged to be verbal, emotional, and are rewarded for this. For boys this is not true. So it's hardly surprising that girls and boys grow up wanting to do the things for which they were rewarded.
So yes, society does socialize women in a way that makes them want to avoid IT. But why does IT have these characteristics that women would avoid? I'd say because it is male-dominated, not because IT is inherently an anti-social field.
At school girls are uninterested in IT - why? its not because they fear a mysoginistic office full of potential rapists, its because it seems dull, anti-social and math/science oriented.
No, it's because they don't want to work in a field which has become dull and anti-social because men control it, and men work hard to keep it that way in order to keep women out. Men are big on protecting their turf. As to the "math/science oriented" comment, you have heard about the numerous studies showing how girls and boys are encouraged to like certain fields in primary school, yes? This hardly indicates a biological dislike of math & science by women. Instead, it simply demonstrates that the problem has a deeper root than simply the IT field itself. But certainly, a good start at dealing with the problems of sexism is to start close to home, which in our case means the IT field.Re:sexism is a red herring
TeeJay on 2002-11-15T10:07:55
I don't think my culture is steeped in sexism. There is a history of it, that doesn't mean that society is sexist, any more than society having a history of racism is racist, and I don't see anyone complaining about the absence of any particular race in IT.I don't believe that I have worked in atypical environments, or that I am blinkered from sexism. As I said before there is a lot more sexism in other industries yet they have a good mix of men and women - Look at any business studies class at college and university and you will see as many if not more girls than boys, yet they will work in the same office and 'sexist' atmosphere as if they took a computing degree. In fact business graduates are more likely to suffer sexism that it graduates.
As for offensive behaviour. Do we now have to go out of our way to avoid offending or scaring women. I already have to cross to the other side of the road when walking home at night to avoid some woman thinking I am a rapist just because I happen to be withing 30 feet of her at night.
Even if we bent over backwards to make IT more comfortable for women we would still be an all-male industry.
Making the industry politically correct won't help - IT is already one of the most socially liberal fields to work in, it has a rich racial mix and social mix even if it lacks women.
The answer is to make IT, science, etc more interesting in school. That is where the problem lies.
This crap about men protecting turf is bullshit. Why the fuck would I want people to think I am a boring nerd? I work hard to shake off that image as do most of those I know. We fight this image problem constantly, but the media and society as a whole has decided that we are all skinny, pale, sad, lonely, pervy teenagers who spend all out time in dark rooms and love bill gates and playing doom.
Rather than trying to force a few people to change their ways, look at where the actual problem is - the media, schools, society *outside* of IT.
Start a project at your local school to get girls involved. We already have many local and national schemes to get women and girls into engineering and science in the UK.
Don't expect to be made welcome though. Why would women want a male chauvinist pig to help them when they don't need any help and are quite capable of doing it themselves?
I lost interest in this debate a long time ago when I realised that actually the only people who want more women in IT are the men in IT.
Re:sexism is a red herring
TeeJay on 2002-11-15T11:49:47
I mean. I lost interest in trying to make the industry more attractive to women.I would much rather we lost the geeky nerdy image, but even after The Matrix, Blowfish and Hackers its seems to have stuck.
At the same time I would rather work with people who are interested in the technology, the languages, the ideas involved in perl than the 9-5 people who only care about hacking code for a paycheck rather than because they find it rewarding in itself.
