I was a little surprised by some of the reaction to my last journal. I admit that I came across sounding disparaging of christianity (I was aiming at "gently mocking", but it seems I overshot) but I was very surprised to see Purdy describe it as "shocking".
I've been trying to work out what was shocking about it and have decided that it must be another of those "cultural differences" caused by living on opposite sides of the Atlantic.
In the UK, my views on religion (and christianity in particular) are pretty mainstream. Even tho' we have a state religion over here church attendance have been dropping for fifty years. I'm hard-pressed to think of a single friend who is a practicing christian[1]. Atheism and agnosticism seem to be the most popular "religious beliefs" over here.
The result of this is that theists in the UK are used to people disparaging their beliefs. It's the theists who are usually seen as as slightly strange. A British christian wouldn't see anything shocking in my journal entry as they see and hear similar opinions all the time.
It seems to me that the same is not true in the US. Over there religion still has a very strong hold. And the christians that you find there are far more committed to their beliefs. They are far less likely to hear any dissenting viewpoints and, therefore, get far more shocked when they do.
I have no explaination of this difference and would be very interested in hearing any theories.
And in the meantime I'd like to point out that I certainly didn't intend to shock anyone with my views. I'll try to be more careful in the future.
[1] There are a few catholics, but the brainwashing that the catholics carry out on their children is so intense that even catholics who no longer believe in god still describe themselves as catholic.
This did start out as a colony for puritans who liked to burn people as witches so....
Also, the Christmas shopping season has nothing to do with religion and is a recent invention within the last 200 years. Much like the Christmas tree which only became popular after the Royals brought the tradition from Germany in the late 1800s.
[1] There are a few catholics, but the brainwashing that the catholics carry out on their children is so intense that even catholics who no longer believe in god still describe themselves as catholic.
Since I resemble that remark I'd like to point out that we prefer to be called "Recovering Catholics"
Also, since my father was a brit I can offer my observation on the difference in religion. He was CofE for years and years yet always came to mass with us though never went through the motions or communion. Religion was viewed by both my parents as a personal issue, not something publicly discussed as nearly every aspect of life in America generally tends to be.
In the last few years of his life, dad finally converted to Catholicism and things got weird which I generally attribute to his knowing his time on the planet was drawing to a close. After his death he wanted to be interred in a crypt so to ensure his resurrection...even my mother didn't know about this.
Americans live their life publicly and the English tend to live it more privately and can handle a bit of tolerance considering religion has been a boil on the ass of the UK for quite some time now. We also prefer movies have a happy ending too.
Just be glad you don't live in the states where getting offended by the blurring of the separation of church and state in the 'god bless america' everywhere you go can get you nailed as anti-american.
Remember, if it sinks it's dead and if it floats, BURN IT!
Re:Shock
hfb on 2001-11-26T14:49:40
The Catholics in Ireland might disagree with you on that
:)
And, personally, it's nice to have a little variety in journals considering that it lends a 3rd dimension as there is only so much about Perl you can write.....and most of that's rather droll...
Reading the other responses, I do believe it is a cultural difference that explains the shock. Religion is one of the taboo topics where I'm from - you don't bring it up unless someone else does (or unless you're really strongly commited to religion [Baptists are known for this]).
I'm also shocked on the UK vs. USA statistics on religion. Here, a lot of folks do belong and go to some church, but you'd be surprised how many just go for the matter of going and trying to feel good about it (that's not what church is about). If these folks were true to themselves, the US & UK would prolly have similar statistics.
Jason
It seems to me that the same is not true in the US. Over there religion still has a very strong hold. And the christians that you find there are far more committed to their beliefs.
Well, committed to their beliefs, yes. Committed to the teachings of Jesus Christ, no. I'm an atheist but I think Jesus was a pretty cool revolutionary. It's sad that all those people who claim to believe that he's the son of god seem to not care much about the message he was preaching (you know that peace and love shit, right?).
-daveRe:Committed?
pudge on 2001-11-26T18:52:34
It's sad that all those people who claim to believe that he's the son of god seem to not care much about the message he was preaching
Similarly, it's sad that all those people who claim to be open-minded and liberal would so virulently attack beliefs they don't agree with.
Oops, it looks like you said "all" where you meant to say "some."
Re:Committed?
autarch on 2001-11-26T22:19:06
Actually, mister touchy, I meant to say:
It's sad that that there are all those people...
But unsurprisingly I didn't spend hours agonizing over the wording of my comment.
And furthermore...
What I said hardly qualifies as a virulent attack by any stretch of the imagination. But for the record, I think there a lot of hypocrites who claim to be Christian who never seem to ask themselves WWJD (What would Jesus do). These people are pretty evil, acting in the name of a person that they'd probably have put up on a cross themselves if they'd been in the right place at the right time.
Feel free to get as aggrieved as you want.
Also, for the record, I never claimed to be open-minded or liberal.Re:Committed?
pudge on 2001-11-26T22:30:14
1. Sorry, but I cannot be blamed for taking you at your word.
2. I did not say or imply that you were making a virulent attack, or that you claimed to be open-minded or liberal. I am sorry that you took it that way. It was not directed at you any more than your comment was directed at me.Re:Committed?
pdcawley on 2001-11-29T10:53:34
It probably all depends on what you mean by virulent.
Re:Cheeso Chreesto
pdcawley on 2001-11-29T10:58:32
Oh, UK people can still be weirded out by the idea of idea argument/debate as sport.
But we are more in tune with the idea of the wind up. Which is why it's generally harder to get a pudge type rise out of a UK christian if you start using phrases like 'lickle baby jesus' in a sarcastic manner.Re:Cheeso Chreesto
pudge on 2001-11-29T12:35:16
Which is why it's generally harder to get a pudge type rise out of a UK christian
Hm, I thought I was pretty well restrained... Re:Cheeso Chreesto
pdcawley on 2001-11-29T13:33:27
You were. You seem to be getting better at working out when you're being gently ribbed and when it's for blood.
Either that or you've just taken to ignoring us.
The human psyche needs a set of rules with which to organize what it experiences and make sense out of it. For some this comes in religion. God is mysterious, the concept goes. God does things that mere mortals cannot understand, and that is why, to steal a title from Rabbi Kushner, Bad things happen to good people. For many this is comfortable. There is a purpose, there is a direction, and there is a destination. Some people need that level of comfort. It doesn't make them more or less of a person, more or less "brave" or self-sufficient. It just is. Religion -- the concept of a god, a mythos, a hell, a heaven -- is their epistemology.
Notice here that I didn't mention a specific religion. It doesnt really matter. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. mostly work off similar tenets. A god, a heaven, a mythos (Jesus, Mohammed). Some religions do split up the concept of God. Polytheistic views like Hindu, and the Norse/Greek/Roman systems do split up god into more reasonable chunks, ostensibly because assigning lightning to zeus and hunting to athena makes more sense to them.
Re:This is why I don't discuss religion. Continued
ct on 2001-11-27T15:04:29
OK, so apparently I hit submit instead of preview.The problem in all of this is that discussing religion with someone is many times challenging their worldview. If someone stands before you and tells you the sky is green, it's very easy to become defensive. This is especially prevalent in the US. American society simply isn't at a point where open religious dissension is socially acceptable. Especially here in the midwest. And especially not with the current president.
Nothing written on a web board about religion is going to change the epistemology of someone. Not even in a place like use.perl where the people speaking are known to you, and many times respected by you. Discussing religion with the intent to WIN this way is sheer folly. Discussing it on use.perl doubly so.
Now, as to whether davorg's original comment had a place on use.perl, I think it does, yes. Unless pudge want's to say there's a resource issue, which I'll quietly acquiesce to, the journal is just that. I personally find the journals fascinating. People who frequent this site I find Fascinating. If you say that davorg can't wax poetic occasionally about christmas, you need to tell Purdy not to tell stories about his dutch friend's apartment next to the Pot shop. Pudge needs to not post about his DirecTV. And hfb needs to break off the relationship with Mugatu. I hope none of that comes to pass because I find all three people and all three journals fascinating.
