Following the freedom fries thing, I am noticing a trend on this side of the Atlantic of replacing French/France with Freedom everywhere. After putting up a fight against neo-imperialism, it would only be seem deserved.
The first occurence of that that I heard of was a presenter claiming to be from "Freedom Telecom" (I'm sure Jon Orwant will appreciate as I hear he works there) at the TV Anytime Forum, but I don't know if it was his idea of if he copied it from elsewhere. I am starting to see it all over the place, it's quite funny and a welcome relief from the grave mistake the US and their lapdogs are currently committing.
I must be crazy to have moved to Finland I just think of how totally fucked up and sheep-like the US has become in these sad and terrible times. Did you hear some Senator in Florida wants to exhume the remains of US soldiers from WWII who are buried in France and return them to 'patriotic soil'?! It's so unspeakably bizarre yet so typically American that I'm at a loss to even begin to explain. There's a yank in my Finnish class who, after class on Tuesday, came up to me while I was talking to a Canadian about the impending doom. The guy is in his early 20s and from California and he thought the 'surrender now or be killed' flyers being dropped on the Iraqi troops was really 'harsh, dude! heh, heh.' Then he asked me if I was for or against the war and I simply shook my head to indicate that I am not. He got a weird look on his face and crossed the street and has been avoiding me since. I'm ashamed that the people of the US are so ready to accept whever the media and the government supply it and the righteousness in enforcing it via patriotic rhohypnol. I have begun speaking German when I'm at a loss in Finnish as the last thing I want to be right now, and perhaps never again, is an American.
Re:every time I think...
pudge on 2003-03-26T03:49:14
I'm ashamed that the people of the US are so ready to accept whever the media and the government supply it
Right, because people who disagree with you couldn't possibly be thinking for themselves.Re:every time I think...
hfb on 2003-03-26T08:23:49
lies, conflicts of interest, more lies and yet many people turn a blind eye and cheer for the Goliath. Besides, who wants to be on the side of a bunch of assholes who behave like 8 year olds and change the name of foods and encourage others to behave like them...AND THEY DO...instead of saying 'grow up asshole and start fixing the fucking economy instead of wasting time and money on changing french fries to freedom fries.' It's utterly bizzare. And you are being intentionally obtuse and troll-like...I thought you had tired of doing that.
Re:every time I think...
pudge on 2003-03-26T12:37:31
Yes, Hersh implies the adminstration lied. The worst thing it actually did, as best we can know, is pass on information it should have known was forged.
What really bugs me about what the administration has been doing is not that it may have lied -- if they did it is wrong, but that is not what bugs me most -- it is that there are plenty of GOOD reasons to be doing what they are doing, but they are bringing up tons of other not-very-good reasons in order to try to convince people. It's a strange world where the good reasons (for example, threat to our interests and our troops in the Middle East) are not able to convince people, but the bad ones (links to Al Qaeda) are.
But the main point there is that the bad reasons don't invalidate the good ones. You are saying that because there are bad reasons, it is wrong/lemmingish to support the war, ignoring that there are good reasons. That just because some people lash out against the French inappropriately, that I shouldn't be in favor of some of the same things they are in favor of.
If we are to use that argument, then no one should be antiwar either, because of the huge number of completely unreasonable and illogical arguments against the war coming from the antiwar side. But that's silly, because despite the nonsense in the antiwar side, there are also plenty of good reasons to be antiwar.
As to being obtuse and troll-like, well, your post was just that, I thought.
Re:every time I think...
hfb on 2003-03-26T12:51:06
I'm saying that the complete lack of dialogue and demand for answers is disturbing and that, instead of thinking about what the consequences of this action will be, people are overly jingoistic and blinded by it. It has gotten to the point where I don't believe anything the media is pushing, for or against, anymore and that's the most scary reality of all. I don't think France had or has pure intentions either but an entire country renaming french fries is one of the most absurd actions i've ever heard. People are easily distracted by the inane instead of looking at the far more difficult and unsettling questions that really need to be tended to. You'll get another 4 years of dubya followed by 8 years of his brother at this rate.
Re:every time I think...
pudge on 2003-03-26T13:06:53
Complete lack of dialogue and demand for answers? Not thinking about consequences? That describes as many pro-war people as anti-war people, I suppose, but does not describe any significant portion of the pro-war or anti-war people that I know.
Yes, we do need a higher quality of dialogue. That's the case in almost everything that happens, not just the war. But it happens on both sides; it certainly is not an argument against the pro-war camp any less than an argument against the anti-war camp.
As to French Fries... it's an immature, but harmless, way of blowing off steam against a nation that has been acting in poor faith. It's better than violence or any real action. I mildly chuckled when I heard it, recognizing that it was stupid, and I moved on. As you said, it is too easy to be distracted, and such things are essentially meaningless. I won't dwell on them.
Re:every time I think...
hfb on 2003-03-26T13:29:18
It's stupid but symbolic, I think, of how america is now, an America I want no part of.
And the vast majority of the people we know are not the people of the US who are boycotting a musical group because they said they were ashamed of the US instead of wondering maybe why they might say something like that. It is not something one does with glee and joy to deride or even expatriate from ones own country with enmity and bitterness and shame for its actions. But in the US now there is only one correct way of thinking and anything less is something people use to berate and pushish those who are 'against you'. This war will not have a happy hollywood ending and it could have been avoided instead of going to war and selling your civil liberties wholesale to Ashcroft.
Re:every time I think...
pudge on 2003-03-26T13:36:49
Again, every criticism you make about pro-war people being stupid can be applied to anti-war people, too. There is not "only one correct way of thinking," not on a national basis. Perhaps there is only one way of thinking in particular groups. Try going to San Francisco or Berkeley or Cambridge and being in favor of the war.
Yes, there is a sense that if someone disagrees with you they are "against you," and are derided because of it, but that goes for both sides, as the antiwar protests clearly showed.
Just because there are stupid people on the pro-war side, that does not have anything to do with the validity of the pro-war position. If it did, then no position could be valid, because all of them have a majority of stupid proponents.Re:every time I think...
hfb on 2003-03-26T13:49:15
I'm criticising the entire country, not just the different camps of opinion. The anti-war demonstrations have been very disappointing as they always appear as fringe elements in the media and not very well organised or well spoken. However, it's different to be shouted at by a protester and having the feds give you the 3rd degree for not being for the war. There are stupid people everywhere and judging by the polls, most of them are in the US
:) At this point one can only hope that it will be over soon and that the US follows through on the liberation promise this time as opposed to, say, Afghanistan where they may be free but the opium overlords are enjoying a new renaissance with greater production than ever before. The US doesn't appear to have a very good track record in the follow-through on 'liberation'. Re:every time I think...
pudge on 2003-03-26T14:05:04
There are stupid people everywhere and judging by the polls, most of them are in the US
No, we're just louder.Re:every time I think...
rafael on 2003-03-26T13:14:05
Be paranoid : as says Andy Oram in an underdeveloped essay, Bush is not stupid, but he deliberately dumbs down the conversation because he knows that doing so benefits his position.
I feel an Acme module coming on...
Re:Operation: Iraqi France
darobin on 2003-03-25T19:07:19
Hahaha, it could even be one of those Acme modules that actually has something useful in it, namely the ability to discern when to use France or French. Acme::Lingua::PreIraqInvasion.
