... And Then When I *Don't* Try to be Provocative

chromatic on 2007-08-04T04:59:56

I can usually tell when I'm going to post something provocative, but Perl is Dead. Long live Perl! has had more traffic than I expected. (Thanks, JT!)

Aside from the usual worthless debate from people who just can't get their heads away from The Broken Metric of "Intuitive" to Beginners, or the idea that maintainable software is usually not a language issue, one response stuck out.

On reddit, synthespian argued that our understanding of computer science is too immature to measure the effects of complexity on language suitability. That seems in the same vein as Larry's observation that computer scientists should pay attention to the linguists, who at least have some idea on how people communicate.

I wonder why that concept seems to elude so many programmers. (Actually, typing that sentence embarrasses me. So many programmers are lousy communicators, it shouldn't surprise me.)

(Now to post a really lame link to claim a Technorati Profile.)

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Programmers and Other Smart People

pudge on 2007-08-04T14:50:58

The problem is that smart people tend to overestimate in what ways they are smart. I've run into countless programmers and scientists who, for example, think they really understand politics just because they listen to NPR, although they couldn't even tell you what "cloture" means. And don't even get me started on scientists who think they understand philosophy just because they can wax poetic about stem cells.

That's not to say that you can't be smart in more than one area. But being smart in one area does not naturally translate to another: you have to work hard at both. As a man who was both a theologian and a scientist said, about 100 years ago, a great mistake is made when the dicta of specialists in scientific investigation are accepted in religious matters as of any particular value. Indeed, the concentration of specialists on narrow lines of investigation really unfits them for duly weighing religious evidence.

Larry can be a linguist and a computer scientist. But just because someone is a computer scientist doesn't make them particularly insightful about language. Or politics, or philosophy, or geology ...

Re:Programmers and Other Smart People

hfb on 2007-08-08T04:05:12

Well, and just because Larry is a linguist doesn't mean he really understands how people communicate either. He doesn't communicate often or well when he does. It's like saying Longfellow was a great communicator. Larry is too pleased with his own sense of obtuseness to be that in tune with how real people communicate every day in the land of real people.

There are engineers...and then there are the people who know how shit works and make it all run, like plumbers and electricians. :)

Re:Programmers and Other Smart People

pudge on 2007-08-08T04:17:57

And there's computer scientists, and then there are computer programmers. There's system architects, and system administrators. :-)

Re:Programmers and Other Smart People

hfb on 2007-08-08T12:59:30

Yeah, and with a carload of CS and programmer guys and 3.50 you can get a cup of coffee at starbucks. :)

Re:Programmers and Other Smart People

chromatic on 2007-08-08T05:37:44

Well, and just because Larry is a linguist doesn't mean he really understands how people communicate either.

I never claimed that linguists "really understand", merely that I think they're better at understanding language than are programmers. You can't have a gross generalization without either a little disgust or 144 subjects.

Re:Programmers and Other Smart People

hfb on 2007-08-08T13:08:14

I would think that Larry's own camp of linguistics, the one where you drop someone into a language and have them understand it through the mechanics of 'natural' language would disagree with that assumption.

Re:Programmers and Other Smart People

Aristotle on 2007-08-08T06:20:36

doesn’t mean he really understands how people communicate either. He doesn’t communicate often or well when he does.

That’s somewhat of a non-sequitur. Understanding and ability aren’t necessarily linked closely, or at all. This is strikingly so the closer you get to issues involving psychology. Understanding a bunch about what your parents did wrong doesn’t mean you’ll be any better equipped to raise your own children, say.

Notation Rationalization

djberg96 on 2007-08-04T16:10:41

From the reddit entry:

"Additionally, there's no evidence than syntax complexity is better of worse. Where is the real statistical evidence that a more complex syntax add up to a larger cognitive overload?"

Apparently my brain telling me so when I look at code from many different languages after 10 years of programming isn't enough. But, even if such studies were conducted it wouldn't matter to some. Faith cannot be shaken by such things.

BZZT

chromatic on 2007-08-04T18:54:30

That's right kids, it's time for another exciting episode of ANECDOTE or DATA!

This week's contestant is Daniel Berger, a polyglot programmer with a lot of recent experience in Ruby! Let's see what Daniel has to say.

Apparently my brain telling me so when I look at code from many different languages after 10 years of programming isn't enough.

Hm, nice one Daniel! Let's see what our expert panel has to say!

The votes are in, and they judge this as... ANECDOTE! Ooh, sorry.

Thanks for playing, Daniel! We have some lovely parting gifts in your dressing room.

Tune in next week, folks, when we'll have an actual study on... ANECDOTE or DATA!