Complain where you can't actually influence anything except spreading untrue gossip, because no one involved with the process is actually around.
"...the OSCON organizers are openly hostile to Perl..."
Why just the other day, one of the conference people posted a patch to p5p to change all instances of [Pp]erl to PHP. I tell you, they're so sneaky....
Re:"openly"?
djberg96 on 2006-05-26T14:20:41
Yeah, it's just handwaving nonsense. Perhaps he's trying to work O'Reilly over for next year.Re:"openly"?
mr_bean on 2006-05-28T03:06:04
I appreciate that point of view. merlyn is using 'openly' to mean 'secretly.'
Another point of view, which I took, is that merlyn is using 'openly' to mean 'clearly,' or 'and they don't care if the perl community thinks they are hostile.'
But it is all semantics, anyway.
In fact, it seems to happen to me a lot. I'm a felon because words of mine were shoved back in my face without the context to explain them.
And now this is getting blasted all over blogspace as well.
By "openly hostile", I meant that in the sense of "accepting fewer and fewer talks on the Perl tracks, and fewer tutorials". So, O'Reilly decreases the significance of Perl at the confererence, and as consequence, fewer Perl people show up looking for innovation and networking, and of course, it spirals downward in each subsequent year.
Perhaps O'Reilly is just in a holding pattern about Perl waiting for Perl 6, but it seems like "The Perl Conference" really doesn't exist any more, having been lost into the noise at "The Open Source Conference".
I miss the days when O'Reilly really stood behind Perl, holding it out as a seperate and useful technology. I don't blame O'Reilly for wanting to make a buck, however.
That's what I meant, and I stand by that. But that's also why Stonehenge won't have a significant presence at OSCON this year, since I've chosen to put my conference money into conferences where Perl matters, such as various YAPC conferences.
Re:Some context...
n1vux on 2006-05-26T16:18:09
Thanks, lack of a Randal-Party(tm) makes me feel less bad about missing OSCON yet again this year, even though I would benefit from some of the non-Perl F/LOSS tracks. Still not sure if I can make YAPC::NA but it's at least closer.Sadly, the world does take us out of context regularly. It's not just you. brian d foy noted similar treatment just yesterday also. Executives / managers / clients seem to have defective lisetening bones the world over.
Politicians learn that the news deals in soundbits, and sucessful ones write speeches and guard their extemporaneous utterances accordingly. Most things politicians do the rest of us should avoid, but in this one area perhaps we could learn from them.
Cheers!
Re:Some context...
brian_d_foy on 2006-05-26T16:50:27
To be clear, I was talking about an isolated case of a single nut-job taking something quite innocent and using it out of context to support something completely different that what I actually said. I wasn't dealing with an executive or manager or client.
The context of Randal's statement is clear, even if the history surrounding it isn't. I tend to look at IRC as the flow of thoughts straight from the id to the keyboard and then into IRC loggers, meaning every unfiltered thing anyone says now lives forever.
Re:Some context...
n1vux on 2006-05-31T18:00:19
To be clear, I was talking about an isolated case of a single nut-job taking something quite innocent and using it out of context to support something completely different that what I actually said. I wasn't dealing with an executive or manager or client.Indeed. There are nutjobs who aren't executives or clients and vice versa. My point was merely that taking-out-of-context was so prevalent, there was another instance on use.perl.org the same day.
The context of Randal's statement is clear, even if the history surrounding it isn't.
it's clearer to those who both know Randal's sense of humor/irony/sarcasm and the history of the conference than to those who might stumble upon it with Google. And far clearer in context than out.
I tend to look at IRC as the flow of thoughts straight from the id to the keyboard and then into IRC loggers, meaning every unfiltered thing anyone says now lives forever.
Indeed. Even more so than DejaNews -- the resurrection of our old 'gone after 14 days' sophmoric banter shocked some of us old-time usenet hacks back when.
Cheers!
Re:Some context...
hfb on 2006-05-26T16:20:35
Take it like a man, would you Randal. You were quoted in a wikipedia article citing a different channel in late April saying the same thing. Stop trying to pull the 'i'm a victim' schtick every time someone calls your bluff.
There isn't anything of much interest going on in perl these days. What, yet another hour or two of how to write your own template or other same old same old? The conference has matured, the users have matured and perl is wearing depends. When's the last time you went to an ADA conference? That's not ORAs fault.
Re:Some context...
chromatic on 2006-05-26T17:04:53
It's amazing how things are taken out of context.I linked to the entire IRC conversation. Exactly how much more context was there? (Explaining what you meant by "openly hostile" several days later in a completely different forum does not count.)
I realize you've donated more time and energy to Perl and the Perl community than perhaps anyone else in the world, but your comment was stupid and mean.
By "stupid and mean", I mean "potentially libelous toward at least two Perl people who've volunteered an insane amount of thankless time and trouble for Perl and the Perl community and made in a place where neither of those people were present to defend themselves or their actions."
Re:Some context...
slanning on 2006-05-29T14:53:56
I agree that he probably shouldn't've used the phrase "openly hostile", but people say stupid shit on IRC all the time, especially in #perl. I guess I'm not getting why you linked to it from here instead of going on IRC to argue about it. Now instead of a hundred or so people idling, the entire intarweb knows about it. It seems kind of rude to take something said in a relatively private forum and broadcast it like that.Re:Some context...
chromatic on 2006-05-29T18:26:06
I guess I'm not getting why you linked to it from here instead of going on IRC to argue about it.I did that because I found it a couple of weeks later on the public Internet and hate to see friends and colleagues insulted without the chance to defend themselves.
Re:Some context...
vek on 2006-05-29T19:05:13
Now instead of a hundred or so people idling, the entire intarweb knows about it. It seems kind of rude to take something said in a relatively private forum and broadcast it like that.
Huh? I'm not sure I get your point. The conversation was already on the "intarweb". Am I missing something?Re:Some context...
slanning on 2006-05-30T12:31:02
No, I wasn't thinking, sorry.
I think it's kind of rude to put IRC logs on the web, though. Another reason to avoid #perl, not that I needed more reasons.Re:Some context...
vek on 2006-05-30T17:46:11
I think it's kind of rude to put IRC logs on the web, though.
Yes, I couldn't agree more.
