I should have stopped reading comments on Slashdot years ago. Expecting insight into software or programming there is like expecting my eight year old cousin to drive an ambulance. Even if he did successfully back it out of the driveway, he'll do more damage than anyone could predict.
While I'm still occasionally surprised at the lack of depth of discussion (for the most part), I've rarely been shocked into responding to the awfulness I saw. That is, until last week.
In a story about the release of Perl 6 Essentials, I know to expect really lame discussions. "Blah blah unreadable", "blah blah not done yet", "blah blah mod me down suckers." I didn't really expect to see this comment. (If you're sensitive, you might not want to read the thread. I was offended.)
It boggles my mind that, in a profession and a community that realizes and laments a lack of women, the burning question when a woman enters the community and does something significant is "Got a full-body shot of her?"
I respect LinuxChix (and occasionally work with a couple of the members) and I've heard hfb talk about the subject of sexism and hostility many, many times. I'm really starting to believe that being silent doesn't help. Maybe the right solution is to say, without sarcasm, malice, or anger, "That was rude and I don't agree."
Maybe I'm oversensitive, but I just want to shake people and say "Be nice!"
... the fact that someone is going to make the predictable sexist remark or that the first person to take the poster to task gets modded down as a troll (as of this writing, that is)? That's pretty sad.
I'm glad you bring this up. Silence is Evil.
Re:Which is more disgusting ...
autarch on 2003-07-02T20:24:11
There's an Ani DiFranco song with these lyrics:
i sing sometimes like my life is at stake
'cause you're only as loud as the noises you make
i'm learning to laugh as hard as i can listen
'cause silence is violence in women and poor people
if more people were screaming then i could relax
but a good brain ain't diddley if you don't have the facts
I love Ani.
What's worse, a bunch of little boys on
I've said it many times that I don't believe people in this community, including Larry, who talk a good line about wanting more women in the community but do nothing to curb the more flagrant bad examples. Most women have enough children in their lives and don't necessarily want to increase the number with those who aren't either in their genepool or signing their paycheck. Wanting more women around yet turning a blind eye to the van leaving TPC for whoring in Mexico just doesn't seem like there's very much sincerity in the string of words meaning nothing.
Re:Do Not be Silent
hfb on 2003-07-02T21:15:38
You agree...yet you never say anything either.
Re:Do Not be Silent
autarch on 2003-07-02T22:37:12
Elaine, could you point to some _specific_, _public_ examples of what you're talking about? You keep making oblique references but none of them seem to be things of which most of us are aware. Or maybe I'm the _only_ one who's never heard of the "whoring trip to Mexico" at TPC. That seems unlikely, though.
In my experience, the various Perl forums I'm involved in (here, Perl Monks, p5p, other mailing lists) have generally been reasonably good in terms of treatment of women, people of color, etc. In fact, the only _really_ offensive incident I can think of in the past year or two occurred on the Mason users list, and I responded publically and firmly. I hope that any women on that list understood that the people who write Mason (aka, the ones with a lot of pull in that community) are on their side!
You keep saying that nobody says anything about these problems, but honestly, I just haven't seen that many, and I think I'm quite a bit more aware of this than most people. I'm more than happy to be outspoken on this sort of stuff, so just point me to it!Re:Do Not be Silent
hfb on 2003-07-03T07:18:08
Well...I was being intentionally oblique since I don't want a repeat performance from last week, but why not. The van leaving TPC for south of the border was his and most people knew what it was for, he talks about hookers, mentionas Hooters frequently, and his photo archive is so bad in every sense that I've asked to have my photos removed...for years. He's the poster boy next year for Misogyny Man Monthly.
Randal is at the front door of the perl community since he teaches to beginners, hangs out on Perl Monks, etc. Is it any wonder we don't have more women? I have complained to those who might have success at turning the tide from the blind eye but I won't hold my breath. Everyone knows about the problem, everyone rolls their eyes and talks behind his back about the problem but not a single one is willing to go up to him or put him to the screws. Instead, I do and get the joy of getting called something I'm not. Since he's a homophobe, I think the guys would have a better chance at saying things to him without having to worry about being called a jilted boytoy
:) Re:Do Not be Silent
autarch on 2003-07-03T16:11:03
Ugh, I hadn't seen that particular exchange. That was pretty damn vile.Re:Do Not be Silent
jsmith on 2003-07-04T05:11:47
Being a non-confrontationalist myself (I really have a hard time being angry at my boss in person, and not because I'm without reason sometimes), I probably would be worried about being thrown out, but it might be fun if a bunch of people showed up at the AlpacaParty wearing pink triangles, at least on their conference badges.
I'll be bringing a pink marker and will definitely put a triangle on my badge (if there's enough white space). I was already planning on it:}
Iirc, some people did this at USENIX a week or two ago in San Antonio (a few from my office attended---one came back with such a triangle on his badge, but that's another story).
Seriously though, it is nice to see someone else worried about the tone over at Slashdot. I've noticed it for quite a while, but I've had other battles to fight -- I'm already at a fairly conservative school in Texas (Texas A&M U.). I ignore Slashdot except for the headlines, and even then I take a grain of salt with them.Re:Do Not be Silent
autarch on 2003-07-04T16:50:30
The other alternative is to simply not attend. I think I'll pass.
Anyone want to play Go that night?Re:Do Not be Silent
drhyde on 2003-07-03T09:03:59
No, you're dead wrong. There's *plenty* of things I see written, both online and off, which I disagree with, but which I don't respond to. To expect me to respond to all of them - or even to just the worst of them, the rightwing fuckwits, the sexist morons, the racist retards - is just stupid. There ain't enough time in the world.Re:Do Not be Silent
hfb on 2003-07-03T15:46:44
I don't buy the 'don't have the time' especially since I see many folks wasting time on IRC arguing about some pedantic detail that means nothing. Noone is asking anyone to respond to everything but the silence is palpable. People say they want more women around here yet are complicit in their silence while turning a blind eye to behaviours that are sure to continue. I have no trust in those who say they want something but aren't willing to do anything at all to get it or give excuses that it's someone elses job.
Re:Do Not be Silent
drhyde on 2003-07-04T08:31:21
I am only responding because if I don't I will obviously agree. And I don't.Re:Do Not be Silent
barbie on 2003-07-03T09:44:25
Sorry but this is bogus.silence is just silent (perhaps implied) agreementAllison hasn't replied, does that mean she agrees with the comments? Of course it doesn't. Just because a person does not want to get involved with a massive flamewar is no indication that they agree (or disagree). As it happens, I believe Allison is occupied with more worthwhile efforts than joining a flawewar. Elaine has put her point across on many occasions, and while I applaud her for standing up and being counted, there are many people (male and female) who aren't prepared to (or don't have the time to) be dragged into the debate.
If I'm in a position to object, then I generally do. On a public forum, such as slashdot (which I don't read), or conferences, such as OSCON (that I didn't attend), where I have no knowledge of what's going on, does the fact I don't object mean I agree? According to your statement you appear to think I do. Thankfully, there are plenty of well minded people in this community that do object, and the fact they get deridded for it is a sad state of affairs. But implying that the vast majority of the community doesn't object is unfounded and just as insulting.
Also think for a minute. We here at UsePerl, PerlMonks, the Perl User Groups, etc are just the tip of the iceberg. We are the minority amongst the numbers of people who actually program in Perl. Many of whom are women. Does the fact that they don't object mean they agree with the statements too?
Okay I've taken this to an extreme, but the point I'm trying to make is that tarring anyone with the brush that they are sexist (or racist, etc) just because they don't respond is just as wrong and insulting as the original statements.
For what it's worth I do hope that the weight of disapproval that is slowly coming to the fore now, show that comments like this don't belong anywhere in this community. If anyone feels insensed enough to publically react, then more power to their elbow. But DON'T ever assume silence implies agreement.
Re:Do Not be Silent
Ovid on 2003-07-03T14:59:36
I'm not entirely certain if I'm reading you correctly. drhyde's comment (the one above yours), is one that I certainly agree with. I can't respond to every instance that I see of racism, sexism, or other "isms". It's just too tiring. But while silence does not necessarily imply agreement, it does lend tacit support to those who would make such statements. After all, they reason, if only one person in a room full of people takes them to task then clearly that one person is in the minority, right?
So the question becomes "do you ever defend people from innapropriate comments"? I suspect that you do, given how strongly worded your statement is. On the other hand, if someone is never willing to defend others who have been unjustly belittled, then I don't think much of that person. From time to time we have to have the courage to stand up and say "this is wrong".
Re:Do Not be Silent
barbie on 2003-07-03T15:49:37
I would say we are in agreement, but just coming from a different angle. Agreed that people do need to be called to task when they are out of line. However, the sweeping remark that just because I don't respond, then I am in agreement is wrong. As I stated in my comment, my choice to not get involved might be because I don't want to get draw into a flamewar or perhaps I have better (or more relevant) causes to fight.Unfortunately in this world too many are unwilling to stick there head/hand up and object, mainly due to the fear of reprisal. There have been many instances where I've objected to comments, actions and deeds, not just in print, but also face to face. Those of us here who are willing to put our names to our comments I'm pretty sure have or would do the same.
The fact that the poster of that particular thread posted anonymously speaks volumes. Most would dismiss the comments of an idiot, others become angered enough to respond. All strength to them who have objected. However, I object to the assumption that because I didn't posted my objection that then means I agree with the statements.
One thought that did occur to me. On other forums I use, there is a link titled along the lines of "Inappropriate post, let us know", which then sends a message to the moderator, who can then review it. Perhaps slashdot could do with something like that, so that defamatory remarks get removed as soon as possible.
Re:Do Not be Silent
Ovid on 2003-07-03T15:55:42
barbie wrote:
One thought that did occur to me. On other forums I use, there is a link titled along the lines of "Inappropriate post, let us know", which then sends a message to the moderator, who can then review it. Perhaps slashdot could do with something like that, so that defamatory remarks get removed as soon as possible.Ya know, it would be cool to watch slashdot implode like that. I fear there would be nothing left
:) Re:Do Not be Silent
barbie on 2003-07-03T16:43:20
Hmmm. You have a point there;) Re:Do Not be Silent
autarch on 2003-07-03T16:14:22
Context and place is everything. Obviously, Slashdot is a swamp. Tossing a note of objection into the swamp is probably pointless.
However, places like use.perl, Perl Monks, the various perl mailing lists, TPC, YAPC, and so on should not ever be allowed to sink to that level. If someone were to post something like what was posted on Slashdot _here_, then silence would indeed be acceptance.
A borderline place worth cleaning up might the Perl IRC channels. They're pretty damn swampy, but it's a small enough group that maybe change is possible.
As the popular folk expression goes in America:
Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig will enjoy it.
Sexism is one of those topics I try to avoid talking about in public for the above reason. However, I am trying avoiding work...
The comment chromatic cited is hardly the first or even the worst example of adolescent postings on Slashdot, a web site that I thought had lost serious credibility as a source for anything but atrocious grammar long ago. While comments like the one cited shouldn't be encouraged, they should certainly be ignored. That that half-witted post has generated this much attention is batty.
Am I shocked that males in an immature forum, when confronted with an unknown female's name, ask to see her titties? No. This is the basis for nearly all American TV and movies. Do I think the computer industry is a seething cauldron of sexism? IT is no better or worse than other industries out there (perhaps this isn't saying much for egalitarianism). Is there sexism in the computer industry? No doubt there is, but the odd slashdot comment is not the place to start the war against sexism.
How many female project leaders do you know? How about female VPs/directors of engineering/IT/IS? These are the areas that betray the most damaging sexism and, sadly, I have seen examples of this kind of nethanderthalism up close. Save your spleen for the workplace when a competent female engineer is passed over for promotion or a female job applicant gets rejected. That's the cutting edge of sexism.
Fighting a war on words is exactly how the vibrant Feminist movement of the 60s and 70s got derailed in the 80s. Expurgating the language to remedy sexism is like trying to cure brain cancer with asprin.
Re:This is a pig-wrestling topic
chromatic on 2003-07-03T17:13:36
Right before I received my undergraduate degree, the Academic Dean called me into his office for a little advice. One of the things that stuck with me was, "Fight only the battles that matter. Sometimes you'll have to fight a battle you can't win, but you don't have to fight every battle."
I'm certainly not interested in scouring Slashdot (or #perl) for things that offend me just to call people on the carpet. If I find myself in a situation where people are behaving badly and I can say something, though, I think I'll feel guilty if I don't say, "Hey, I find that inappropriate."
It's not so much about language.
Re:YHBT
shiflett on 2003-07-16T02:41:50
Personally, I admire the fact that chromatic posted, and I like how he did not turn the attack toward the original poster but simply voiced his opinion.
A troll is successful if someone believes the post to be sincere, right? The goal of a troll is for this to be the case, so I imagine there are many people who were fooled in this way. If nothing else, I am glad that those who might have believed the troll to be sincere could see chromatic's response and know that there are more respectable members of the community.
Not by editor moderation, I might add; I spot-checked some of the comments and that score is what the user base assigned them.
<Bart Simpson> The system works. </Bart Simpson>
