All the Perl that's Practical to Extract and Report

Perl is not a toll road

brian_d_foy on 2004-01-11T12:21:11

I was going to work on a program to pull down all of the latest O'Reilly weblog entries so I could read them offline, but I got fired up about the latest incarnation of Perl certification debates. Rather than reply to Tim's story, I posted my thoughts in my O'Reilly weblog.

Despite the use.perl story, reactions seemed to be mixed on the wiki devoted to the topic.

Executive summary: I think certifications are a predatory scam. Let's not make Perl a toll road.

Perl is too specific

jjohn on 2004-01-11T13:56:03

I think certifications for specific languages are daft and could easily go the away of labor unions (which are at their worst rackets that skim money off their members). Steve McConnell says is that you need to certify software engineers in a similar way that civil engineers are. Languages are just the tools. All of the them do essentially the same kinds of things and many software errors appear despite the implementing language. Prove that you can program by doing a formal apprenticeship program, learn from an experienced engineer and the craft will markedly improve. This kind of program would need to have the force of law behind it to work. It would also increase the cost of software engineers (although it may reduce the overall cost of projects to reduce programming deadweight).

That said, I doubt that coders will be applying for software licenses anytime soon. ;-)

Manglement likes pieces of paper

ajt on 2004-01-11T14:12:48

I don't really know the true value of certification, but I would like extra bits of paper, because of the sad fact that it often impresses clue-less management.

There is value in a fair and recognised certification programme, however I accept that they often become bureaucratic, expensive and out of touch with reality. Also pieces of papers often become a substitute for good recruiting practice.

If only we lived in an ideal world...

Re:Manglement likes pieces of paper

merlyn on 2004-01-11T18:26:31

Then print up your own. Maybe I need to release Acme::Self::Certify that prints up a nice looking certification for you.

Re:Manglement likes pieces of paper

ajt on 2004-01-11T19:39:31

Interesting idea....

Should we have a competition to make-up bogus acronyms for the certificate bodies and exams?

Re:Manglement likes pieces of paper

Buck on 2004-01-12T01:21:08

I propose American Society of Social Humanitarians and Organisationally Licensed Engineers and Scientists. :)

And while I'm neither for or against certification, I've been told by some people I work with that I'm certifiable. :)

All in jest, folks. Remember, tomorrow's Monday.

Buck, MCSE
(Minesweeper Champion and Solitaire Expert)

Re:Manglement likes pieces of paper

runrig on 2004-01-11T19:38:47

MJD has pieces of paper available at a reasonable price :-)

Re:Manglement likes pieces of paper

ajt on 2004-01-11T22:07:02

But his prices are too reasonable, a manager won't believe you if you say it cost $X, but if you waste $x thousand they are much happier.

There is something Dilbertesque about this whole topic. I'm not against examinations per se, but I am against the inappropiate usage put on their results.

Re:Manglement likes pieces of paper

jordan on 2004-01-12T03:24:29

Actually, MJD makes some very good points about Perl Certification. We certainly want people who are in the know actually making the certifications, right?

I would suggest that if some organization seriously starts producing or threatening to produce Perl Certification, that The Perl Foundation or some other equivalent body get in the business immediately. Heck, it could be a money making business for TPF. Better them than somebody else, no?

Re:Manglement likes pieces of paper

brian_d_foy on 2004-01-12T06:26:54

I think that it would call into question TPF's non-profit mandate. There are some sticky legal issues there. I explored those with Perl Mongers and ultimately abandoned them because it something that would provide little benefit with lots of effort.

Remember, TPF is not set up to be a full time effort by a bunch of people answering phone queries from human resources people.

I see a lot of people volunteering TPF to do a lot of things, but I do not see TPF volunteering to do anything. It is the same way with TPI and PM. Everyone has an idea, but nobody wants to do the work, and the amount of work is daunting.

Re:Manglement likes pieces of paper

jordan on 2004-01-12T14:14:13

I agree with this.

I was concerned that, without the proper people behind it, the wrong people would be involved, but really, if it's not worth doing, and I agree that it's not, then it's not worth doing well.

Standards of competence are handy...

pdcawley on 2004-01-15T17:45:07

Can I just point people to something I wrote on this very subject in August?

The potted version: I think there's something to be said for standards, but very little to be said for Tim's version of certification.

Re:Standards of competence are handy...

brian_d_foy on 2004-01-16T07:36:23

Ah, I read this before all the ado got started. Someone must have pointed me to it.

I agree---we are a long way away from certifications. We need to establish standards first, and I see that taking at least a couple of years.

Re:Standards of competence are handy...

pdcawley on 2004-01-20T13:33:10

At least. And that's assuming resources and the will to do it are forthcoming.