What is chromatic's real name?
So far, my assumption has been that his last name was Christopher, since he has published a few books under that name. Now, it's much more likely that this is an alias used just for publishing - and that his real name is Shane Warden.
My evidence?
This is Mr. Warden:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfmLsQq6OUU
These are some photos of chromatic:
http://www.wgz.org/chromatic/images/me/perl6-qa.jpg [removed]
http://www.wgz.org/chromatic/images/me/mind_control.jpg [removed]
http://www.wgz.org/chromatic/images/me/foo2004.jpg [removed]
http://bayimg.com/mAnLMAAcc [new]
[Update: more to come, he has removed a whole bunch, but I can find them again. I've also ensured there are a few copies of the youtube video; please let me know if it goes down. -- ank]
See for yourself.
Note that I couldn't care less if he uses an alias (although I have to confess I find his one-name alias hilarious); and I actually hesitated until now to divulge this information because I believe in individual freedoms (in this case, the freedom of being called whatever the hell you want.) This changed when he didn't approve many of my comments on his blog - a violent, frightened response to a threat I simply don't pose. All I wanted is coherent discussion on what the Perl 6 group has been doing and how this is bad for the Perl community as a whole. I am now disgusted by the way he has dealt with my criticisms - and his utter lack of even a trace of humility or self-doubt.
I'm just a software developer in Australia, and have a family to feed. I'm much more interested in having my things done at the end of the day so I can play with my son than anything else - and I certainly take no delight in debating pretentious assholes.
I enjoy complex/weird programming languages just like every other nerd, but I would rather use a coherent, time-tested, stable, multithreaded and fast programming language for my daily work. Ultimately, it's no longer up to us which way Perl 6 goes - the damage has already been done.
And who do we have to blame for it? Well, largely, ourselves, for not taking the matter into our own hands. After all, this was based on our own RFCs back in the late 90s, so we are partially responsible for the train-wreck.
But ultimately we do not control what the word "perl" gets glued to - we don't own the name, so we can't just create a new programming language and call it "perl 6" - it doesn't work that way. There is a group of people who can. This is the people that have chosen to turn the Perl 6 logo into a joke. This is the people who think it's okay to have a whole bunch of operators that any smart person will laugh at. This is the people who refuse to see that Perl looks like line noise, even to decade-old Perl programmers. And these same people keep saying that Perl is "like English", even in light of atrocities like twigils.
We don't have to accept the programming language Wall and his circle of friends decide to unleash - we can sail away to cleaner waters. And lots of us have.
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-14T09:43:39
Shane may be entitled to rejecting my comments, but he is definitely not entitled to editing them. It may be his blog, but it's my content - and my ideas. Misrepresenting my ideas on purpose is a violent act.
I can tell you are confused. You are asking all the wrong questions. The real question is: why did we let this bunch of crazy people drive perl directly to the garbage? You don't care that it's become a joke? Interesting.
You, as member of the perl community, are also responsible for it. Take some responsibility and think about changing it, instead of following the herd - it's these guys who (whether you like it or not) are the perl intelligentsia and control the outcome of all this.
Coherent conversations
colink on 2010-06-14T17:03:19
In your original blog post, you said that chromatic had not approved your posts.
In your comment above, you say he edited them.
You also said you wanted a coherent conversation. It sounds like, right now, you're really upset and are having problems putting one together.
If you have a beef with him, why not put together a clear, well-written post with what he did, with links to the topics.
If, on the other hand, you're just mad and want to get even for him not approving your posts, I think you should chill. No one in the community, whether they support Perl 6, Perl 5, Perl 4 or whatever, will respect your views when they're presented like this.
Re:Coherent conversations
ank on 2010-06-14T17:13:53
Shane has actually done both - rejecting and editing. Interesting how you didn't reply to any of my other comments.
As for chilling - you only want me to "chill" (I am in no way upset about this issue) because what I'm saying is somehow insulting to you -- and this is the case only because you still believe the perl mythos - speed is not important, Conway is a great programmer, Wall is smart and a linguist thus perl is awesome, Perl looks like English, Perl 6 "will be done when it's done", Perl is awesome and non-Perl programmers "don't get it", Perl doesn't look like line noise and if you think so you don't understand the code, etc etc.
Once you free yourself of all that doctrine, you will start to understand what I'm saying - and you will agree with me.
Your reaction is no different to those muslims who get agitated/insulted when a picture of Mohammed is shown - it's only your religion that is preventing you from seeing the forest.
Re:Coherent conversations
ank on 2010-06-14T17:29:39
I believe there also seems to be a larger issue: Perl developers in general are not used to discussion. We are not used to having someone question our community leaders; we are not used to discussion - we are used to incoherent "state of the onion" addresses and absolutely no accountability.
So, I understand that my comments might come as a shock, but believe me, these guys have been making a mess with what used to be a vibrant community - because we didn't follow them more closely. And every time things seem to have calmed down, they bring me back into their discussion by absolutely ignoring issues that everybody knows are there (yes, perl does look like line noise, and yes, it is in most cases a write-only language - and perl 6 will only make things much worse)
As a second point, the fact that my first language is not English and that my background is not Anglo-Saxon may make my posts a bit difficult to follow - or you might get the sense that I'm being aggressive. I am used to passionate discussions, and I have absolutely no fear in saying what I think, especially when we are talking about sacred cows. I feel exactly zero respect for any of the perl devels by that merit alone - I respect people for being kind human beings, not for making some random programs - and I'm repulsed by fandom
That probably explains why you think I am upset.
Re:I must be missing something
jdavidb on 2010-06-21T19:06:41
Misrepresenting my ideas on purpose is a violent act
Bullshit. You are insulting every victim of true violence, ever.
Why not go all the way and call it rape? chromatic raped you just as much as he was violent to you.
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-21T21:33:00
Bullshit. You are insulting every victim of true violence, ever.
Hah. This is probably the funniest comment I've read in a long, long time. Thanks for it, you lightened up my morning.
On a more serious note - go rape yourself
:D Like Divine in Female Trouble. Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-23T00:23:27
Why do I think your comment is so funny? It's self-defeating. You accuse my original post of insulting true victims of violence, hence rendering it invalid. But in the same post you introduce rape, making the exact same mistake yourself! If you follow your logic, your post insults true victims of rape. This puts your comment in a funny situation:If it is valid, then what it says about my post is also valid about yours, hence rendering your comment invalid.
If it isn't valid, then it can be safely ignored.
Hence, your post was an exercise in futility. I also assume you haven't studied Logic? It is, however, cute in its unintended self-reference.
I find your signature extremely funny as well - are you so insecure that you need to advertise how cool you are in a sig?
Think about it, kid. Our Perl community leaders have failed us, and it's up to us to grab the bull by its horns.
Re:I must be missing something
Aristotle on 2010-06-23T00:31:54
Our Perl community leaders have failed us, and it’s up to us to grab the bull by its horns.
Why don’t you? Put forth a credible proposal and people will follow.
Go ahead.
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-23T00:57:12
Why don't you? Put forth a credible proposal and people will follow.I will start a programming language eventually; have a few important clients to keep happy at the moment, but I've promised myself I'd do it.
I will not put forth a proposal for the Perl community, though - they are oblivious to anything that doesn't fit their preconceptions - such as my "preposterous idea" that the number of operators in Perl 6 (and IMHO perl 5 too, but primarily Perl 6) should be minimised. Making Perl 6 for mortals is not one of their priorities.
Re:I must be missing something
Aristotle on 2010-06-23T02:01:13
Sounds to me like the community and the leaders fit together fine… for good or for ill. All that puzzles me is why you’d care to continue to rail against it to no apparent end (since if that is how the community is, and that is how the leaders are, and the two fit together – then you aren’t going to effect any change).
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-23T02:13:32
Sounds to me like the community and the leaders fit together fines/the community/what remains of the community/
All that puzzles me is why you'd care to continue to rail against it to no apparent end
Contrarianism, basically - someone has to do it. It usually keeps communities honest - although crying over how much of a troll a particular contrarian is. See Christopher Hitchens, for instance.
Re:I must be missing something
petdance on 2010-06-24T15:10:31
Contrarianism, basically - someone has to do it.So you're doing it for the good of the community. How kind of you.
Is there something we can do to donate this kindness to another community?
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-24T22:14:55
Is there something we can do to donate this kindness to another community?Why exactly does it bother you? Are you afraid I might be right in something? If I'm just a lone nut, what difference does it make what I post?
Re:I must be missing something
chromatic on 2010-06-24T12:10:22
Put forth a credible proposal and people will follow.
Did you mean "Do something worth following"?
Re:I must be missing something
Aristotle on 2010-06-24T13:11:52
Not necessarily. I don’t think you have to be able to do better than whoever they’re criticising in order for your criticism to be valid. I was getting at the fact that talk about how someone should do something is insubstantial. There needs to be an actual exposition of something better, or at the very least an analytical explanation of exactly what is bad about something, taking second- and further-order effects into account – something, anything, that’s constructive on some level – to crystallise people around a cause. (Code is always best, but remember that Larry didn’t have any for a long time yet Perl 6 is happening.) But a plain pursed-lipped “well this is all crap” cannot possibly achieve anything (other than maybe paint its utterer in a bad light) by its very nature.
That is what I meant.
Re:I must be missing something
runrig on 2010-06-23T14:52:44
...making the exact same mistake yourself! Umm, except Aristotle made the exact same mistake (actually, an even "bigger" mistake) on purpose. If you missed that, there's really no point in further discussion.
Re:I must be missing something
runrig on 2010-06-23T18:25:16
s/Aristotle/jdavidb/Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-23T23:09:32
That makes no difference, on purpose or not. The point is "denigrating serious matters", not "it was on purpose or not."
Wake up, don't allow lwall and friends to lie to you - these guys have been playing us since ~2000... it takes a really big effort to ignore the lack of proper multithreading in perl, its speed or its fugly semantics. And it is an issue. You can continue to ignore it at the peril of your own career.
Re:I must be missing something
runrig on 2010-06-24T15:56:17
That makes no difference, on purpose or not. The point is "denigrating serious matters"...
That is the difference, that you were "denegrating", and jdavidb was using hyperbole to give an exaggerated example of the same thing.
...ignore the lack of proper multithreading ... Did I mention multithreading? Or whether or not I've been ignoring it?
.oO(Where's the *plonk* button?) Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-24T22:14:18
That is the difference, that you were "denegrating", and jdavidb was using hyperbole to give an exaggerated example of the same thing.Why? You can either use it or not at all - the context makes no difference. Otherwise, who decides when it can be used? You?
Did I mention multithreading? Or whether or not I've been ignoring it?
.oO(Where's the *plonk* button?) No, I'm just making a comment on one of the many issues related to how Perl is stagnated. Interesting that you chose to ignore it instead of giving it an appropriate response. But hey, that's fanboi-ism, I guess.
Re:I must be missing something
jdavidb on 2010-07-06T18:48:25
Yep. The canary died; abandon the coal mine.
Re:I must be missing something
jdavidb on 2010-07-06T18:49:01
Think about it, kid. Our Perl community leaders have failed us
That's funny; I don't remember voting for them.
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-07-07T02:29:21
That's funny; I don't remember voting for them.
That's what happens with so-called "benevolent" dictatorships.
Re:I must be missing something
jdavidb on 2010-07-19T17:33:54
Let me rephrase it: That's funny, I don't remember them dictating anything to me.
Re:I must be missing something
jdavidb on 2010-07-19T17:36:20
Never mind. You have missed every point of subtlety I've ever tried to make, so let me say it straight out: I can follow any leaders I please and ignore any leaders I want to. Your "our Perl community leaders have failed us" comment makes absolutely no sense to me. You and I share exactly zero leaders.
What you have is some people you want to follow, and they don't want to lead you, and apparently this isn't getting through your head. They are going to Georgia, and you want to go to Massachusetts, and you want them to be your leaders, and you are mad at them for going to Georgia. Meanwhile, I'm taking a trip to Paris, France, and texting my friends in Georgia from time to time.
I'm grown up. I don't play follow the leader. Maybe you should try it.
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-14T09:56:31
Wow, the more I think about your reply, the more I am amazed. Do they have this kind of hold on you? Look at the logo they pushed. Look at the response Wall and his minions had on that. Look at what they do, look at what they say. Look at the discussions, the sheer insanity of Wall's answers. These are the leaders you want? Wow. Just wow.
I guess you defend the liberties of kicking people out when you don't like what they have to say, right? One true programming language is much better than a few - and it's easier to think that these guys are great - who is going to criticize Conway's awful CPAN code that barely has any comments? (see for instance Parse::RecDescent - the internals are not documented) I mean, these are sacred cows, right?
As for the information on who chromatic is, it's public knowledge (I found it via Google,) whether you like it or not. Suppressing information for the benefit of a self-designated intelligentsia group is fascism.
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-14T10:07:13
Also, do you want to know why Parse:RecDescent is only documented as pod and noone cares? Because he is a sacred cow, everyone assumes that his code MUST be good, and whatever he writes goes straight into stuff that we are supposed to use -- just because he is Doctor Conway, who can code in his sleep.
Also, since we as perl minions have the delusion that "speed doesn't matter", as long as it works we don't look into it - who cares how fast it is?
Give me a break. More conformist behavior. I'm tired of it - and a lot of other people are too.
Re:I must be missing something
Aristotle on 2010-06-15T16:11:08
Give me a break.
From what?
You are the one who brought up P::RD. Then you proceeded to fantasise a completely hypothetical response to your point; then worked yourself into a lather over the fantasy; then proceeded to hallucinate that something real took place – and yeah, then you needed a break from an “exchange” which took place entirely inside your head.
You know what the funniest thing is?
Everyone already knows to avoid Damian-ware. Imagine. No one is offended. No one cares.
Your revelations are one gigantic yawn.
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-15T21:22:29
Everyone already knows to avoid Damian-ware. Imagine. No one is offended. No one cares.
Great. Can I quote you on that?
Re:I must be missing something
Aristotle on 2010-06-15T21:40:56
Feel free.
Re:I must be missing something
chromatic on 2010-06-14T18:14:11
As for the information on who chromatic is, it's public knowledge (I found it via Google,)....
I'm not sure what you found, but my driver license reads T******* D****.
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-14T18:32:58
Great, Shane - then you won't be bothered when I call you Shane Warden.Re:I must be missing something
chromatic on 2010-06-14T18:59:10
While Mr. Warden (or Mr. Christopher or Mr. Erle or Mr. Nutter or Mr. Carlyle or Mr. Collier, whoever you decide to believe I am next) might, I'm much more interested in that research to which you referred Moritz months ago, or your thoughts on the APL case studies I recommended, or you talking on #perl6 or writing to p6l with constructive suggestions on how to improve learnability and cohesion and language retention.
In truth, I'm happy to ignore everything except your thoughts on language design.
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-14T19:06:55
Shane, you've proven that you are very happy to ignore and edit my thoughts on language design as well.
Re:I must be missing something
chromatic on 2010-06-14T21:52:57
Apparently the "Crazy to English" automatic translator plugin I use on MPB isn't perfect. I filed a bug on Movable Type.
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-15T00:05:32
Also, Shane, I'm not the one with multiple personality disorder:D Re:I must be missing something
chromatic on 2010-06-15T01:37:36
I don't know what to tell you, Wendy Darling. In between your frenetic bursts of trying to track down Mr. Warden (I should admit to some connection, as did drive by his house this weekend; it's over two hours south of mine), did you happen to find your research papers? I know several other people are interested in proof that Perl 6 is doomed somewhat more conclusive than "Perl 6 is doomed, and I read somewhere why!"
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-15T02:09:18
To you it's Mrs. Darling.Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-14T18:49:50
This really cracks me up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chromatic_(programmer)
Look at all the perl intelligentsia trying really hard not to get his name in the wiki page. Status quo anyone? What else are they doing for each other behind our backs?
I am surely happy I have never given money to The Perl Foundation, who knows what they could be up to. Maybe it's time to check on the results of some of their grants?
Re:I must be missing something
ank on 2010-06-14T19:01:53
Speaking of which, look here:
http://www.perlfoundation.org/march_25_2007_adam_kennedy_s_refactoring_editor_gr ant
I think Adam Kennedy is a great programmer, but I question the decision to accept money for something he didn't finish.Re:I must be missing something
LTjake on 2010-06-15T01:24:55
I'm sure you've seen Padre.
Although the project wasn't started by Adam, you should read the changelog. You'll see his name along-side many of the changes listed over the last few years.
Looks like we got our editor.
This is completely below the belt.
Re:Unnecessary
ank on 2010-06-14T18:34:29
How so? Please explain.
Also, what about the actual issues? It doesn't seem that you care much for that, huh? More interested in keeping the status quo than to improve perl?
Lookie here! http://bayimg.com/Gancaaacd Is that our good friend Shane Warne? Yes it is!
Good there was a copy of that file before he pulled it from public view.
