Rachel's Story - a series of emails from an american peace protestor killed by an israeli bull dozer as she tried to stop them desteroying homes and green houses.
Israel is the only country in the world that is able to commit so many atrocities without anybody stopping them. Had iran, iraq or any european country pulled the kinds of stunts that Israel pulls they would have been flattened by NATO by now.
Israel seems determined to repeat the horrors of kosovo and south africa against non-jewish and arabic populations.
It is the only country in the middle east known to have and to have recently used chemical weapons, and is the only middle eastern state to attack its neighbours in recent years, it is also the only nuclear state in the region.
It is time we sent the UN into israel, backed by force naturally because like Hitler, Sharon was elected but is as great a danger to the world as Saddam.
EDITED
Isreali tanks fired shells and teargas to disperse and terrorise the attendents of Rachels' memorial.
This shows how Israel bullies even international's in palestine with brutal force. No wonder palestinians really hate the isrealis - unlike most israeli's they are terrorised every day.
See the article in the guardian - the only press coverage this news has got!
Israel is the only country in the world that is not at peace with its neighbors in the region. It is also the only country in the world where its neighbors have tried to annihilate them no less than 4 times in 50 years. It is also the only country in the world where a militant, determined, suicidal terrorist group is adamantly trying to deny its right to exist and actively attempts to kill its (non-combatant) citizens.Israel is the only country in the world that is able to commit so many atrocities without anybody stopping them.
And before you complain about the supposed "atrocities" commited by the Israeli government, consider all of the atrocities committed by the Iraqi government on its citizens. Are those acts somehow less objectionable because the US is now on the verge of "stopping them"? Or are they acceptable for some other reason?
If this were even remotely true, there would have been a united, sustained global outcry, followed by sanctions and a policy of containment or regime change, or UN-sanctioned military action. None of those has happened. And the assertion Israel's treatment of Palestinians (and bulldozing of American protesters who put themselves in harm's way) is in any way like the policy of Apartheid, or Balkan-style ethnic cleansing is patently false.Israel seems determined to repeat the horrors of kosovo and south africa against non-jewish and arabic populations.
Claiming that Sharon is like Hitler does not make it so. It only invokes Godwin's Law.It is time we sent the UN into israel, backed by force naturally because like Hitler, Sharon was elected but is as great a danger to the world as Saddam.
The only danger in the world to day that is as great or greater than Saddam Hussein are the endless stream of constant protests that put forth the proposition that terrorists are somehow innocent bystanders who have been horribly wronged and are most certainly undeserving of the massive and assymetric state-sponsored retaliations they face on a daily basis.
Governments who protect their citizens are acting well within their sovereign rights. Claims to the contrary by the misinformed do not change this basic fact.
Re:Israel
autarch on 2003-03-18T21:27:50
If this were even remotely true, there would have been a united, sustained global outcry, followed by sanctions and a policy of containment or regime change, or UN-sanctioned military action. None of those has happened.
Huh? This has happened. Most of the rest of the world has repeatedly condemned Israeli atrocities against the Palestinians. This goes back a long way. There was a UN resolution condemning the 1967 war of expansion. More recently, in September of 2002, a UN security council resolution calling on Israel to pull out of Palestinian territory was, as usual, ignored by Israel, with no consequences whatsoever, also as usual.
There have also been numerous security council resolutions proposed that have been vetoed by the US, including one condemning Israel for the December 2002 death of 3 UN staff in Gaza and the West Bank.
Earlier in May 2002, the US also vetoed a SC resolution calling on Israel to cease building a settlement in East Jerusalem. 13 members voted in favor, 1 abstained, and ths US vetoed.
There is a fairly long history of this sort of thing, both in the Security Council and the General Assembly. In the General Assembly, it's fairly common to see resolutions condemning Israel which received near-unanimous support except for the US and places like Micronesia and the Marshall Islands. And Israel, of course.
These things tend to receive only minimal reporting here in the US, of course, because it doesn't fit the state myth ("Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East").
The rest of the world would gladly have done something about Israel a long time ago, except for the US's protection.
The only danger in the world to day that is as great or greater than Saddam Hussein are the endless stream of constant protests that put forth the proposition that terrorists are somehow innocent bystanders who have been horribly wronged and are most certainly undeserving of the massive and assymetric state-sponsored retaliations they face on a daily basis.
Straw man alert! C'mon, Adam, you're smarter than that. You sound like a typical radio talk show host, trying to reduce an incredibly complex issue down to a cheap attack on people you disagree with. I have yet to hear one protester say that "terrorists are innocent bystanders", and I probably pay a lot more attention to left publications than you do. And to suggest that even if there were such people they could somehow be more dangerous than Saddam Hussein is pure insanity.
What I _do_ hear is people pointing out that terrorism is _bred by oppression_. I'd hardly think that was such a controversial position. It's pretty rare to see terrorists who come from places with reasonable levels of freedom and comfortable standards of living. A suicide bomber is someone with literally nothing left to lose and no political freedom. People with a grievance don't usually turn to violence as their first option for achieving political goals.Re:Israel
TeeJay on 2003-03-18T21:44:53
Why should I consider any country in comparison to Israel, just because of countries commit atrocities it does not make it OK for israel to do the same.There is a long list of countries that commit atrocities against their own and other people : Burma, Sierra Leone, Zimbabwe, Iraq, The Balkans, Russia, China, North Korea.
Israel is just another of these countries, and I have singled it out because the technical and international communities seem determined to pretend it isn't happening.
Where did I say that the situation in Iraq was acceptable? I never have, I have always supported the Iraqi and Kurdish peoples freedom from oppression by both the Turkish and Iraqi Governments. The situation in Iraq is unacceptable - but the situations elsewhere are equally unacceptable including Burma, Tibet and Israel/Palestine.
Isreal is creating a massive Ghetto in which to starve and desteroy the people of palestine. It is no more fair for helicopter gunships to bomb and rocket Palestinians for the actions of a few extremists than it is fair for those extremists to bomb israeli busses and cafes for the actions of those soldiers.
The UK has had its share of terrorism, we brought it on ourselves just as Isreal bought the wrath of those it has oppressed and displaced on itself. The difference is that the UK didn't have to kill a hundred people to shut down a bomb factory in ealing (minutes from where I lived at the time) or kill anyone to shut down a ricin factory.
Israel is the only country that uses such brutal and inhumane repression against innocent people in the name of 'defense'. How does desteroying the homes of bombers, or razing whole towns and their fields provide defense - it is purely to satisfy the racist hatred of Israelis towards the arab nation it displaced.
Peaceful protestors have been killed by Israel just as they have been in Burma, South Africa, Afghanistan and China. Israels policies are every bit as bad as Apartheid - ask any Muslim or even many christians how they are treated in Israel.
I think it is very clear that Sharon is determined to build massive ghetto's for palestine just as Hitler and his Nazi party did in Europe. The ethnic hatred and prejudice found in isreal and even in places like slashdot, kuro5hin, irc and use.perl towards palestinians is shocking.
I have heard people claim on IRC that it is ok to kill innocent Palestinians on the basis that they support their own freedom fighters, or that they are no better than animals. I am shocked that people can claim that is ok to punish the whole of palestine, starving its children, strangling its economy, stopping all trade, aid and UN human rights inspectors because they blew up a few bombs in israel.
If the UK had the same attitudes to terrorism it would have continued to escalate after 'the troubles' in the 70's but diplomacy and talking has lead to not only a cease-fire but shared government of the region. As long as Israel continues in its path it will bring terror upon itself, and worse it will continue to inflict terror upon the people of palestine regardless of their innocence.
This was the tit-for-tat escalation that lead to the balkans war, and NATO rightly stepped in - israel should submit to teh UN and allow UN Humran Rights Commission to do its job, cease its building of settlements and destruction of palestine, disarm its nuclear, biological and chemical weapons and admit that it must work with palestine rather than continuing its brutal oppression.
Re:Israel
nicholas on 2003-03-19T10:58:10
If the UK had the same attitudes to terrorism it would have continued to escalate after 'the troubles' in the 70's but diplomacy and talking has lead to not only a cease-fire but shared government of the region.Someone from Northern Ireland (well educated and I believe well informed) said that the real reason that the IRA moved towards a ceasefire had nothing to do with diplomacy. Instead it was because the loyalist terror groups were killing more Catholics than the the IRA was killing Protestants, and were maintaining this differential, hence any claim that the IRA was trying to make to its supporters that it was "protecting Catholics" was demonstrably false.
Re:Israel
ziggy on 2003-03-20T19:41:23
If you really believed that human rights violations were objectionable wherever they occurred, you would not be singling out one example above and beyond all others. Because you constantly critique Israeli actions (to the extent where you call for the US/UN to Bomb Israel, not Iraq), yet have virtually nothing to say about any actions going on in elsewhere, your silence is tantamount to acceptance of human rights violations everywhere except Israel.Why should I consider any country in comparison to Israel, just because of countries commit atrocities it does not make it OK for israel to do the same.There is a long list of countries that commit atrocities against their own and other people : Burma, Sierra Leone, Zimbabwe, Iraq, The Balkans, Russia, China, North Korea.
Israel is just another of these countries, and I have singled it out because the technical and international communities seem determined to pretend it isn't happening.
I don't buy your disingenuous defense. If you really believe that atrocities were unacceptable wherever they may occur, you would have more to say about what's going on in Tibet, Kashmir and elsewhere. As it stands, your protests are nothing more than some skewed form of politically-correct anti-Israeli hot air.
Human Rights are important everywhere
TeeJay on 2003-03-21T09:08:57
I really believe these atrocities are unacceptable anywhere.I frequently mention Isreal because it is one of the worst regimes and is under-reported and has so many people trying to excuse it.
Palestine is now one of the worlds most poverty-stricken areas and isreal actively prevents the UN and Aid agencies doing their jobs.
Even burma doesn't do that to its people. I haven't mentioned Burma or tibet for a long time because both are moving forward, slowly but still faster than israel.
I also mention israel because it is very important at a time when the west (or at least the UK and US ) are alientating a huge swathe of the middle east and moderate muslims everywhere.
I also mention isreal because I keep on seeing Jewish, American and Isreali commentators defending it - a very real case of 'the lady doth protest too much'. The fact that there is a large pro-israel faction in places like use.perl, kuro5hin, etc means that we should make an effort to ensure that it isn't brushed under the carpet by appeasers.
Re:Human Rights are important everywhere
ziggy on 2003-03-21T15:24:22
Your incessant chest-beating about Israel, to the exclusion of all other incidents, does not support this statement.I really believe these atrocities are unacceptable anywhere.The only case of the lady doth protest too much I see here is your anti-Israel stance cloaked in the garb of general moral outrage. If you were genuinely concerned about human rights and justice, then I would expect you would have something to say about regimes who are abusing their own citizens: places like Iraq and North Korea. As it stands, the only thing you are morally outraged about is the plight of the Palestinians, and spend a great deal of time misstating the facts and overstating the case to make the issue in Palestine sound somehow more epic than it truly is.I also mention isreal because I keep on seeing Jewish, American and Isreali commentators defending it - a very real case of 'the lady doth protest too much'.You are confusing a contingent who believes in fact checking with a "pro-Israel faction". Your rhetoric is consistently inflamatory, factually incorrect, and perversely focused on Israeli issues although you defend yourself by asserting that you are truly concerned with tragedies elsewhere in the world (even though your posts show this is demonstrably false).The fact that there is a large pro-israel faction in places like use.perl, kuro5hin, etc means that we should make an effort to ensure that it isn't brushed under the carpet by appeasers.Add that up, and your call for War against Israel is not coming from a stance of concern for the Palestinians, but is in fact a thinly veiled position of simple Israel-bashing.
Re:Human Rights are important everywhere
TeeJay on 2003-03-22T10:55:28
Isreal is one of the worst offendors and unlike many other places where human rights are curtailed it has an elected government - this means people voted for this kind of ghettoisation and deliberate actions against palestine.Unlike China, Burma and Iraq where regimes are imposed (often with Western complicity and support) - Isreal chose to follow this course and it is the will of the people making it more like Kosovo and Serbia where Milosovic was elected. Just as Milosovic and Serbia were a problem, so is Israel.
Also - I can't remember the last time I heard of severe human rights incidents in any of Burma, Tibet and China compared to incidents in Palestine and Isreal occuring every week. You can hardly say there is an urgent need for action in Burma when the Junta there has more constructive dialogue with the Leader of the elected government and even recognises her more than Isreal does with Palestine and Arafat.
The Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government are also making more progress with China than Israel has with Palestine.
After North Korea and Iraq, Isreal is the next biggest problem. Even the zimbabwean cricket team wore black armbands in protest over their governments actions. At least Zimbabwe allows pro-opposition people out of the country - it doesn't even fire rockets into apartment blocks like Israel, or assinate people it disagrees with - The leader of the opposition was put in prison. When was the last time Israel imprisoned any Palestinians or even took them to trial instead of just killing them in their car or their beds.
I really hope I will see Israeli's in places like this coming out and saying that Israels actions are wrong. I see chinese Icons like Jet Li speak out on Tibet. I see Zimbabwean cricketers speak out and wear black arm bands. I see iraqi's in exile speak out about Iraq. But I never see Israeli's like Moshe Bar speak out about the atrocities it commits.
There is little point me talking about North Korea or Tibet or Zimbabwe here on use.perl - it would be preaching to the converted, who here would stand up and defend these regimes? That is not the case with israel - any mention of Israel and you suddenly get appeasers and apologists trying to pick holes (usually failing) and claiming that Isreal is right to be the only country in the world to fire missles and shells into apartments, schools, hospitals and or to deliberately desteroy homes and attack peaceful protestors with force.
You are not checking facts you are trying defend isreal.
Find any factual errors in my journals ! You can argue with my opinion and you have every right to, but to claim that Israel isn't using chemical weapons against isreal, isn't bombing and murdering civilians, isn't breaching UN resolutions, doesn't pursue racist policies within its 1968 borders, or doesn't commit the many atrocities that have hit the news is simply dishonest and shows your true colours.
Re:Human Rights are important everywhere
mrbrklyn on 2003-03-23T12:51:23
>
This is just not right, and I suppose you know this. In fact, the level of oppression of minorities in Israel is very low, probibly lower than nations such as France, or even America.
It certainly comes nothing close, despite being under a 50 year war against it based exclussively on racism in the surrounding Muslim culture, to the systematic rapes of women in Iraq, the massive murder of Jews in Iran, the Cultural Revolution of China which caused nearly 15 percent of the native Chinese population to disapear.
At this point, the conversation becomes pointless when your not even getting the most basic facts straight.
Your problem is that you don't have a better solution for coexistence for Jews in the Middle-East in what IS the native Jewish homeland in the face of a rabid, racist, surrounding culture other than that more Israelis shouldvolunteer for execution...and of course they choose not to do that.
Why don't you pick on Lebenon or Syria. Syria suurounded a city which rebeled against it, refused to let anyone out, put it under sieze, and killed every single individual in the town. Then they left it's remains as a 'warning'. It was then rewarded by allowing the genocidial repression of Christians in Lebenon, and was then turned a blind eye as they invaded the country, where they still hold an illegal occupation while expoiting terrorism. Of course, Syria was NOT at war at the time any of this was happening, so they were rewarded with a seat on the UN Security Council, and was placed on the UN Human Rights commerision.
Excuse me if I find that 'Thou doest protest to much' if you belleive that this same UN is in any way capable of settling the Israeli Palestinian Conflict, nor a moral compass which can point at anyone, let alone Israel.Re:Human Rights are important everywhere
mrbrklyn on 2003-03-23T12:53:43
Isreal is one of the worst offendors and unlike many other places where human rights are curtailed it has an elected government - this means people voted for this kind of ghettoisation and deliberate actions against palestine.>>This is just not right, and I suppose you know this. In fact, the level of oppression of minorities in Israel is very low, probibly lower than nations such as France, or even America.
It certainly comes nothing close, despite being under a 50 year war against it based exclussively on racism in the surrounding Muslim culture, to the systematic rapes of women in Iraq, the massive murder of Jews in Iran, the Cultural Revolution of China which caused nearly 15 percent of the native Chinese population to disapear.
At this point, the conversation becomes pointless when your not even getting the most basic facts straight.
Your problem is that you don't have a better solution for coexistence for Jews in the Middle-East in what IS the native Jewish homeland in the face of a rabid, racist, surrounding culture other than that more Israelis shouldvolunteer for execution...and of course they choose not to do that.
Why don't you pick on Lebenon or Syria. Syria suurounded a city which rebeled against it, refused to let anyone out, put it under sieze, and killed every single individual in the town. Then they left it's remains as a 'warning'. It was then rewarded by allowing the genocidial repression of Christians in Lebenon, and was then turned a blind eye as they invaded the country, where they still hold an illegal occupation while expoiting terrorism. Of course, Syria was NOT at war at the time any of this was happening, so they were rewarded with a seat on the UN Security Council, and was placed on the UN Human Rights commerision.
Excuse me if I find that 'Thou doest protest to much' if you belleive that this same UN is in any way capable of settling the Israeli Palestinian Conflict, nor a moral compass which can point at anyone, let alone Israel.
Re:Israel
Whammo on 2003-03-19T00:11:15
Israel is the only country in the world that is not at peace with its neighbors in the region. It is also the only country in the world where its neighbors have tried to annihilate them no less than 4 times in 50 years. It is also the only country in the world where a militant, determined, suicidal terrorist group is adamantly trying to deny its right to exist and actively attempts to kill its (non-combatant) citizens.Actually, this also describes India and Pakistan (almost) dead on in regards to Kashmir.
