If our governments really wanted peace in the middle east and to remove the causes of terrorism we would be going to war with isreal instead of iraq.
Isreal has a long history of illegal military actions, massacres, genocide and its own apartheid system that makes 50's south africa look positively liberal.
Its a kafka-esque nightmare where palestinians are detained without charge, or trial and with no evidence.
The isreali mentallity is so out of touch that they accuse belgium of being anti-semetics just for allowing Ariel Sharon to be tried for genocide - apparently its ok for Isreal to do the same to foreigners for crimes against jews (and execute them) but not okay for jews to be tried for known atrocities. How can the US forgive and forget the US ship that isreali fighters straffed and bombed, killing the entire crew to cover up intercepted radio transmissions about the massacre of palestinian civillians by the isreali armed forces.
Ignoring the blatent trolling for a moment, what's your source for the last paragraph ?
Re:Sources? plenty!
TeeJay on 2003-02-14T12:23:29
panorama and the independant and the guardian.google for USS Liberty.
This isn't a troll. I am serious when I say that Isreal is a far bigger danger in the middle east than Iraq.
Iraq is only a danger to Isreal and possibly Kuwait - neither has a better Human Rights or Denmocracy record than Iraq - They just happen to be US Allies.
Desteroying Isreals military infrastructure and weapons of mass destruction would bring peace far quicker than bombing iraq - so bombing isreal makes more sense than bombing iraq.
Just look at the serious breaches of UN resolutions by Isreal!
or read this by the bbc.
Re:Sources? plenty!
essuu on 2003-02-14T12:41:25
Interesting. I hadn't heard about that.
As a matter of accuracy however, since this page will end up getting indexed somewhere, I feel obliged to point out that (a) the entire crew was not killed as some crew members are quoted extensively in the article; and (b) the US covered it up themselves as there was an election coming so it's hardly in their interest to make much of a fuss about it now.
BTW - It's not that I disagree with you on the need to deal with Israel's breach of UN resolutions. Oh and we could mention Zimbabwe and any number of other places too. It's just that this isn't really the place to air your views. Perl is non-political and use.perl should be too. Use Slashdot, that seems to be what it's for
:) Time and Place
TeeJay on 2003-02-14T12:52:00
Actually Isreal is very relevent to perl for several reasonsFirstly there is the matter of YAPC::Isreal and the isreali perl monger groups. How would we deal with other pariah nations that are involved in perl like North Korea, Zimbabwe or Iraq?
Then there is the matter of Isreal being a big-hitter in the IT industry - the IT industry and the perl community is part of that - cannot just ignore the actions of Isreal when.
Look at how academia is dealing with isreals actions - boycotts and brushing under the carpet - I don't think boycotting Isreali perl groups would be right, I do think however that it is important to air issues about Isreal in forums where isrealis participate.
IT can't put its head in the sand as it did with the Nazi scientists - just as the Nazi scientists made a choice to do science for the benefit of a racist regime so do isreali scientists
As you wish
essuu on 2003-02-14T13:15:51
Best just to get rid of perl all together then !
If you're a USian of a certain viewpoint, you want YAPC::Europe canned.
Some might boycott YAPC::NA for the American handling of military aid to Columbia.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter etc etc.
Perl is above all this. Since I've been involved with perl I've met so many interesting people from all over the world with many different views and cultures. As individuals we all have our part to play in the world, but perl is independent of it. Please take your personal, and non-perl related views, to a more appropriate forum.
Please note - this thread is in imminent danger of serious flamage so I will not be responding to any further comments. I've made my point & made my plea.
Simon.
Re:As you wish
TeeJay on 2003-02-14T13:26:43
on the contrary.The people on use.perl are on the whole intelligent - if we don't agree on which templating system to use there is no reason to agree on politics.
Intelligent disscussion is better than boycotts or heads in the sand. I don't see a problem with pointing out that the gains from bombing isreal rather than iraq would be greater.
I don't support bombing of any nation, regardless of its regime or people. I was against the bombing of kosovo and I;m against the bombing of iraq.
I believe we need UN peacekeepers in isreal based on the example of Cyprus. We also need to ensure that isreal is kept to UN resolutions the same as Iraq or Zimbabwe.
Re:Sources? plenty!
djberg96 on 2003-02-14T16:32:01
I feel obliged to point out that (a) the entire crew was not killed as some crew members are quoted extensively in the articleI was going to correct this but I see you already did. I thought I'd mention that we had one of the surviving crew members speak at a military function when I was stationed at Fort Meade. Now *there* was a man who hated Israel.
In case anyone is wondering *why* they attacked our ship, it was an attempt to draw us into the Yom Kippur War. Israel was rather pissed that we weren't helping them militarily while Egypt was making serious progress across the Suez.
Not that I'm attempting to justify their actions (I'm not, especially as someone who has served), but let's consider the circumstances. Let's also remember that it was 30 years ago.
Re:Sources? plenty!
TeeJay on 2003-02-14T17:37:56
The ship was listlening to radio broadcasts that incriminated Israel in genocide so it was desteroyed before the secret got out. This is well documented.
Re:Sources? plenty!
djberg96 on 2003-02-14T20:33:18
Oops, I thought it happened during the Yom Kippur War, not the Six Day War. I'd be wary of a story like this though, simply because it relies on supposedly classified information that has supposedly been leaked. It's not impossible, though.Oh, and wacking prisoners is hardly something that's unique to Israel. Happens in almost every war on every side.
Re:Sources? plenty!
jordan on 2003-02-14T18:21:23
- Iraq is only a danger to Isreal and possibly Kuwait - neither has a better Human Rights or Denmocracy record than Iraq - They just happen to be US Allies.
I seem to recall Iraq starting a war with Iran and using chemical weapons in that war. So, Iraq is a danger to more than Kuwait and Israel.
Saudi Arabia was quite concerned when Iraq swept into Kuwait that they would keep going and occupy their country as well. It was only quick military build up by the Americans and European allies that prevented this, probably. The Saudi's certainly couldn't have stood up to Iraq without help.
Sadam Hussein is a pan Arabist who dreams to unite all of the Arab countries under his rule. This is clear. Why is he stockpiling tons of VX, Anthrax and missiles with more-than-defensive reach otherwise?
Human Rights? I don't recall Israel doing anything like gassing tens of thousands of Kurds in a genocidal war. I don't recall Kuwait committing genocide, either.
The only massacre of Palestinians I can recall were the camps in Lebanon and Israelis didn't do that, Lebanese Christians did. Not defending the killing of innoncents, but the Lebanese Christians had quite a great deal of hatred built up for the Palestinians after the Palestinian refugees and Syrians destroyed what was once one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
Note the political, and perhaps anti-Semetic, element in the move to indict Sharon over these massacres. The Lebanese Christian militia members, who actually committed the atrocities, goes unmentioned and undicted. Only the Jew is blamed.
Perhaps the Lebanese are being excused because they could have been looking over to what King Hussein of Jordan felt was necessary when the Palestinians tried to take over his country in a bloody coup. Nobody EVER seems to remember Hussein's bloody massacres of Palestinian civilians. Nor do you ever hear mention of the massacre of Maronite Christians at the hands of the PLO.
As to Democracy, Iraq's record on Democracy is better than Israel's? Please. Arabs vote in Israeli elections. I don't recall any examples of Jews voting in Arab elections. Of course, that's because none of the Arab countries really have real elections. Yeah right, Iraq's record of Democracy is a good one, all right.
- From your previous post:
...How can the US forgive and forget the US ship that isreali fighters straffed and bombed, killing the entire crew to cover up intercepted radio transmissions about the massacre of palestinian civillians by the isreali armed forces.
Palestinian civilians? Is there any evidence of this at all? The references you cite say they were Egyptian soldiers. A war crime, certainly, but not the same spin on it at all.
Re:Sources? plenty!
TeeJay on 2003-02-16T23:31:31
Iraq started a war with Iran after America forced out the democratically elected leader and installed a puppet and gave him chemical weapons to use on 'them dirty arabs'.Saudi arabia had more than enough military might to handle Iraq. It buys more than the entire iraqi army every couple of years for gods sake. That and the oil are why America pretends not to notice the absence of democracy or human rights.
As for human rights - Kuwait is no democracy and has many human rights issues - do you americans not have access to amnesty international ?
Isreals human rights abuses are shocking - misiles fired into schools, hospitals, blocks of flats - car bombs, tanks flattening homes while people are still inside, no vote for arabs, horrific racism towards gentiles and particularly arabs. Then there are curfews, cutting off power and water. destruction of property, humilation, verbal and physical abuse by soldiers, the list is endless.
I think you will find a long list of Isreali massacres of palestinians - dozens of palestinians are shot every week.
Sharon was directly responsable for these and other war crimes - it is not anti-semetic - Just as pinochet and milosovic are responsable for the crimes against humanity that they were in charge of so the same applies to sharon.
Iraq has no democracy, I think you will find that Iran and Turkey both have democracies, as do some of the arabic/russian states like chechnya.
I don't think you'll find many palestinians able to vote in the country that has kicked them out but still occupies their land or many arabs able to vote without their slips somehow being lost or not being let into the polling stations.
War crimes are not acceptable. Killing of civilians is not acceptable. When iraq kills civilians it is wrong why are not able to say the same about fucking israel.
Re:Pet Peeve
rafael on 2003-02-14T15:12:20
And do they have nukular waepons ?
First, s/isreal/israel/ig;. Please. It's a pet peeve of mine too.
A statement like this shows you have absolutely no understanding of the last hundred years of history in the Middle East region. The problem isn't presence of a few Jews in the third holiest shrine in Islam. It isn't the unfair oppression of some arabs without a homeland. It's that there are western infidels making a home in the region. If it wasn't the "Zionists in Israel", someone else would be the great satan. If it wasn't the atrocities committed against the Palestinians, it would be the attrocities commited against someone else, somewhere else.If our governments really wanted peace in the middle east and to remove the causes of terrorism we would be going to war with isreal instead of iraq.
Oh, and bombing and gasing an already oppressed Kurdish minority is somehow morally justifiable? Have you ever met a Kurd?Isreal has a long history of illegal military actions, massacres, genocide and its own apartheid system that makes 50's south africa look positively liberal.
If that's the basis of your rationale for bombing Israel, why doesn't someone just declare war on the greater part of South America, Africa, and Asia?Its a kafka-esque nightmare where palestinians are detained without charge, or trial and with no evidence.
The rights promised by the US Constitution are by no means universal. Canada does not have a right to free speech. Should the enlightened nations of the world embargo Canada's trade until they see the light?
If this is a kafka-esque nightmare to you, then you must be living in some alternate reality where the US has annexed the entire world, and guaranteed a basic right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to every person on this planet. Protest all you want, but there is no reason why Israel, Iraq or Tahiti needs to provide a swift, speedy and fair trial by jury so the accused can face his accusers.
Re:Middle Eastern Affairs
TeeJay on 2003-02-14T16:10:33
Yes there will always be some extremists but by removing the fuel from terrorism (which is oppression, poverty and desperation) it will be reduced to a more managable level and policable locally instead of with heavy handing rocket and missile attacks.There are plenty of extremists and terrorists around the world that are not linked to the middle east - the ETA of basque, the Loyalist and Republican Terror Groups in Ireland, Nazi's and Fascists in the US, UK and Europe as well as the terror groups involved in cival war accross Africa and SOuth America as well as Kashmir.
I didn't say it was acceptable to bomb kurds, it is totally unacceptable but not the reason for war. The bombs and gas iraq used were given to Iraq to use Iran and the Kurds by us anyway.
My Point in case it wasn't immediately obvious is that there is less of a reason to bomb iraq than israel.
I think you'll find that detention without charge is banned by the UN convention on human rights and also by the EU. Its not much to expect trial for any accused crime.
We neither need or want the US to annex the world - most of the world already has more rights and a healthier democracy than the US already thank you.
Bush isn't the leader of the free world. There is no free world. There are plenty of free countries - most of europe is free as is most of the far east, and india.
The basis for bombing Isreal *before* Iraq is that it would bring peace sooner if that was what the UN really wanted.
The problem is that bombing israel or iraq or zimbabwe won't solve any problem. The leaders of both nations are well protected and untouchable.
Many of those responsable for genocide in Africa and the balkans have yet to be found, and dictators like Saddam that have fallen in the past have escaped to exile. The only deposed leader to be lynched was where no external force was involved - serbia refused to extradite milosovic just as israel refuses to allow belgium to try Ariel Sharon.
The first thing we should do is disarm isreal and iraq - in that order! by force if necessary, but only if necessary.
Re:Middle Eastern Affairs
ziggy on 2003-02-14T22:34:05
Your point is neither obvious, nor clear, nor well thought out. It is certainly not justified nor is it well argued.My Point in case it wasn't immediately obvious is that there is less of a reason to bomb iraq than israel.You provide no justification for this stance. You also fail to prove that bombing Israel would do anything to further the cause of world peace. If anything, it has a slightly better than average chance at appeasing group of pro-palestinian/anti-western arabists for a brief period of time.The basis for bombing Isreal *before* Iraq is that it would bring peace sooner if that was what the UN really wanted.Only if you wanted to increase the chance of mass genocide -- and kill thousands if not millions of Jews, Christians, Bah'ai, Arabs and Muslims -- instead of denying a few terrorists civil rights that they don't have in the first place (under Israeli law).The first thing we should do is disarm isreal and iraq - in that order! by force if necessary, but only if necessary.Re:Middle Eastern Affairs
TeeJay on 2003-02-16T23:18:31
Isreal has breached UN resolutions, deliberately killed and starved palestinians and hundreds of thousands of refugees in 30 years of ethnic cleansing. This is the same justification that NATO used to bomb Kosovo.The point is obvious - Iraq is just another dictatorship along with N Korea, Burma, China, etc. Isreal is a real danger to peace in the middle east and world wide.
If we are going to bomb a country for being a despotic regime we should bomb china, Zimbabwe, Burma and many other equally appalling regimes -- but this isn't about the regime.
If we were going to bomb a country because it has breached UN resolutions then we should bomb israel, china, north korea, pakistan, burma, etc.
If we were going to bomb a country because it is a danger to world peace we would bomb isreal, america and most of africa.
It is common sense that if you remove a violent bully from a playground then you won't have any trouble. israel is a violent bully that fears no reprisals or accountability as it ignores UN resolutions, breaks international law, assinates suspected terrorists or those suspected of cooperating with them, kills and starves civilians and takes land from its neighbours by force.
Iraq occupied for Kuwait for a matter of days, Isreal has occupied parts of isreal, jordan, syria, palestine and the lebbanon for decades at a time without reprisal.
If we can allow Iraq to have sufficent weapons to defend itself (as any sovereign nation deserves), then we can apply the same to Isreal. We can take away isreals weapons of mass destruction and enforce no fly zones - these would save many innocent arab lives without putting oh-so-precious-jewish-lives-that-are-worth-a-hundred-arab-children at risk.
As for terrorists having civil rights - I think every law supports that suspects suspected of something are innocent until proven guilty. Thats what suspected means - not guilty.
Israel is a pariah state that is looked upon as racist, bullying and unjust by the world apart from the united states - with good reason, it is worse than south africa ever was. Quite why americans have such a strong affection for a country that demands millions in aid while it drives its neighbours to starvation is beyond me.
Re:Middle Eastern Affairs
Simon on 2003-02-14T16:39:33
If this is a kafka-esque nightmare to you, then you must be living in some alternate reality where the US has annexed the entire world, and guaranteed a basic right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to every person on this planet.Hey, ziggy, you might want to try that line when the US stops detaining people without charge or trial and with no evidence...
Re:Middle Eastern Affairs
ziggy on 2003-02-14T22:23:06
Touche, but I still stand by my point. Moral outrage that some nation or locale does not uphold the US Constitution is not a reason to start lobbing bombs in their general direction. It's irrelevant whether that regime is the Israeli government, the Iraqi government, the Detroit Police department, the US government or the kingdom of Outer Foobaristan.Hey, ziggy, you might want to try that line when the US stops detaining people without charge or trial and with no evidence...War is serious business. Calling for war against Israel (or the US against itself in this case) isn't justified by any position of moral outrage alone.
