One idle thought I should mention about those folks who claim homeless people are just lazy and should get jobs. Let's assume they all snap out of it and want a job. How do they go about it?
Many years ago I was homeless. And you know what? Employers didn't want to hire me when I didn't have an address. They didn't like that I left the phone number blank. I had no washer and dryer so even basic sanitation was very, very difficult (I lived near a beach with public showers and would take showers with my clothes on). Given these problems and the fact that there tend to be relatively few public services available to help homeless people, how precisely is one supposed to get a job?
I was damned lucky to get out my situation and were it not for a very fortuitous series of events, I could have been homeless for a long, long time.
(It's also worth noting that until you've eaten your first meal from a trash can like I have, you have no idea how soul-destroying it can be.)
Re:Orwell
Ovid on 2005-10-27T21:54:49
I'm going to have to pick that up, thanks. I enjoy reading Orwell and it would be fascinating to learn his background.
In a civilised society (and I'll admit I don't actually know whether you live in one) there is enough help from the state that no-one need live on the streets, no-one need eat other peoples' rubbish. Therefore I conclude that anyone living on the streets in a civilised society is either mentally ill and incapable of helping themselves (in which case they should be in hospital, and I pay the state to take that responsibility) or is there by their own choice (in which case they don't want my help).
Re:You could have ...
rafael on 2005-10-27T11:46:53
In this case there is no civilised society. (or maybe Finland ?:) I still recommend Orwell's autobiography, see last comment, to see how so-called government or church or Salvation Army help can be more alienating than no help at all. Re:You could have ...
Ovid on 2005-10-27T16:40:23
In a civilised society (and I'll admit I don't actually know whether you live in one) there is enough help from the state that no-one need live on the streets, no-one need eat other peoples' rubbish.
Right. Sure. Try it. It's interesting that those outside of a situation often have a peculiar idea about the situation of those inside of it.
Having an address is not about having mail delivered. It's about being able to put something down on an application so the prospective boss doesn't realize you're homeless. Putting down "Salvation Army" or "Church of God" makes it pretty clear right off the bat that you're homeless and more than once I had potential employers turn me away once they caught on. The phone number's often a giveaway, too. If they're already suspicious and you don't have a phone, you're sunk. (And many employers of low-end jobs want you available on an "on call" basis).
Given how easy it is to identify a homeless applicant, why would you want to hire something you "knew" was a loser? And frankly, who can blame you? You've already assumed they're all mentally ill or lazy. Why would you want to hire someone like that? There are many people, like you, who are prejudiced against the homeless and want nothing to do with them. It's an awfully deep well to crawl out of and your simplistic analysis of a situation I doubt you've personally experienced does not do it justice.
Of course, you've also not addressed the hygiene issue. When you're homeless, it's very tough to hide. You slip into a store and try to wash up in a sink and security comes and tosses you out. You go to a homeless shelter only to find, again, a sign on the door saying "full". When you apply for a job, having the boss wrinkle his nose is not a good sign. Of course, you could scurry to a Church only to find that America, one of the most religious nations in the world, donates an astonishingly small amount of money to charity per capita. The church can't help you (tellingly, those who earn the least in the US tend to give more to charity as a percentage of income. Once again, those far removed from the situation have a curious notion of it).
Quite frequently there are no "friend's houses" available for them to use as an address. There is no "family" to turn to. Some of the folks I met were ex-cons. Some had made mistakes that burned bridges and now regret those mistakes but have nowhere to turn. A few of them are loners who decided to see the US but have been robbed, ran out of money, took ill, or any of a number of things that have left them stranded in a strange, hostile city. One woman was a wife who married young and never had a job but whose husband left her and she didn't know what to do. Yes, some are mentally ill and one couple I met were, as you said, just plain lazy. But many were not. Society despised us. Frat boys would sometimes spit beer on us. Business owners would chase us away and people would not look us in the eye (for the record, I never panhandled. They still wouldn't look at me).
But you've already condemned the homeless as lazy or crazy, so why do I bother to write this?
Re:You could have ...
drhyde on 2005-10-27T21:33:23
Right. Sure. Try it.I know for a fact that in *this* civilised society it is possible to claim income support and housing benefit, and to get help finding a home of some kind from the local council. That home might be a room in a manky "hotel" it's true, but it's a roof, with an address and a phone. Please remember, I did say that I don't know whether you live in a civilised society or not. Judging by your comments in this post, then you probably don't.
Yes, I agree that asking to have your mail sent to "Mr. Ovid, c/o The Salvation Army" is a bad thing. So have it sent to "Mr. Ovid, 246 Norwood Road" or wherever the church is. Small local churches, like all other businesses, have ordinary addresses. You don't need to use their names.
The phone number's often a giveaway, too.
I just looked up the phone numbers of a few local Salvation Army halls, and they look no different from any other local number. Nor do the local priests and churches that I looked up. Nor do the priests I looked up in three other countries.
If they're already suspicious and you don't have a phone, you're sunk. (And many employers of low-end jobs want you available on an "on call" basis).
Sure. Many do. Not all.
Of course, you could scurry to a Church only to find that America
... Oh. Jesusistan. Maybe you might deserve my sympathy after all.
But you've already condemned the homeless as lazy or crazy, so why do I bother to write this?
Ooh, please, do point me at where I said homeless people were either lazy or crazy. Cos I really don't remember saying that.
Re:You could have ...
Ovid on 2005-10-27T21:52:10
Therefore I conclude that anyone living on the streets in a civilised society is either mentally ill and incapable of helping themselves (in which case they should be in hospital, and I pay the state to take that responsibility) or is there by their own choice (in which case they don't want my help).
I really don't know how to read that other than to accuse the homeless of being lazy or crazy. Of course, you do say "civilised society", so perhaps that's a way out. I would definitely argue that the US is not a civilized society when it comes to compassion.
Re:You could have ...
drhyde on 2005-10-27T22:17:22
It's undeniable that some are crazy. However, being homeless by your own choice does not equal being lazy.Re:You could have ...
Ovid on 2005-10-27T22:50:44
Fair enough. I did read too much into what you wrote. My apologies.
Re:You could have ...
jdavidb on 2005-10-27T17:24:41
... had your mail delivered to the local Salvation Army, or a church, or any number of charities' offices, or a friend's house. You could have given their phone numbers too, and they'd take messages for you. Sorry, still no sympathy. Why in the world does the fact that he might have had unconsidered alternatives mean that we should not be sympathetic for his plight?
Re:You could have ...
drhyde on 2005-10-27T21:35:16
Because those alternatives are as obvious as the nose in front of your face.Re:You could have ...
jdavidb on 2005-10-28T16:58:54
Going to churches (including the Salvation Army, which is a church) is not very obvious to non-religious people or persons of other religions.
Going to friends' houses is not very obvious to people with no friends.
Going to charities is obvious, but you'll notice that he mentioned, "You go to a homeless shelter only to find, again, a sign on the door saying 'full'." I would presume that if there were any remaining obvious charities to mention, the full shelters would do so.Re:You could have ...
drhyde on 2005-10-29T00:23:59
I'm not religious at all, but I thought of it. Might as well get some use out of the otherwise pointless god-bothering centres. And as for people of other religions - if there's no local mosque or temple, then "beggars can't be choosers".
Re:Survival guide to homelessness
Ovid on 2005-10-27T20:23:44
That's one hell of a blog. Thank you. Interestingly, like the author, I also never slept in a homeless shelter. I ate at them a couple of times when I could get in, but I couldn't bring myself to sleep there. It stank, the other homeless people often made me nervous and it was far enough away from everything else that it was a rough trek for me.
Raise your hand if you've ever had someone break into your car...while you were sleeping in it...more than once. And then for kicks we can start a Pythonesque dialog of "at least you had a car to sleep in, all we had was..."
Re:What do you propose be done about it?
Ovid on 2005-11-02T01:08:06
With all that in mind (or not), what do you propose be done about the problem?
Which problem? The problem which pisses me off here -- and that's the one the root post and much of the thread is about -- is people's attitudes. There's no way people will voluntarily help the homeless via charity, direct action or the government if they assume the homeless are mostly just lazy and unwilling to work. If you can come up with a way to get people to realize that there just might be a bit more to life than their personal prejudices will admit to, you're a smarter man than I am.
Re:What do you propose be done about it?
pudge on 2005-11-02T01:33:28
The problem which pisses me off here -- and that's the one the root post and much of the thread is about -- is people's attitudes.
Ah. I thought you also were bemoaning the lack of government assistance. But you appear to be saying the first thing to do is change attitudes, and the details of the help that follow such a change are not the point.
The ensuing discussion kinda threw me.:-)
As this is primarily about attitudes... then yeah, I am with you all the way. I just this weekend heard an interesting interview by Ryan Dobson (son of Dr. James, and friend of mine from college) with Mike Yankoski of the book Under The Overpass (also its companion web site). It's from a decidedly Christian perspective, but it's an effort to do just what you're talking about. Mike voluntarily became homeless for five months, and he now attempts to help others understand better what it means to be homeless, and what they can do to help.
