My article The Market Paradox is now posted. It will be interesting to see how (if) people respond.
Re:Some Notes
Ovid on 2004-01-13T02:10:45
Some of the items you mention were addressed in my notes, but the article was going on too long and I tightened it.
I'm at work, so I don't have the book handy, but Greg Palast's "The Best Democracy That Money Can Buy" is well worth reading. I suspect that fraud occurred, but it would be tough to prove without an actual inquiry.
As for the way the voters might have chosen to vote, while you would be correct if you meant that we cannot pinpoint how a particular individual would have voted, I think we can make some same assumptions about the trend of the voting. Specifically, the purge of the voting rolls was supposed to target felons. African American's comprise over 1/3 of the US prison population , despite representing only about 13% of the total US population. Thus, a population that historically tends to vote for Democrats was disproportionately eliminated from Florida voter rolls. Incidentally, Palast reports estimates that over 50% of the names on the scrub list were African-American.
One might argue that it's not Katherine Harris' or Jeb Bush's fault that African Americans were over-represented in the scrub list, but they should have known the list was largely illegal. The Florida Supreme Court had already told Jeb Bush prior to the purge (twice, in fact), that he could not violate the "Full Faith and Credit" provision of the US Constitution. So, we're left with Katherine Harris ordering an illegal scrub list that disproportionately weeds out likely Democratic voters.
I'm really not sure what frustrates me more: the possibility that election fraud occurred, or that the most serious media attention given to this has been outside the US. I can't say for certain that anything illegal happened, but this is a hell of a lot more serious than a stain on a dress.
Re:Some Notes
pudge on 2004-01-13T03:19:39
I think we can make some same assumptions about the trend of the voting
It depends on what the purpose of those assumptions are. For the purpose of discussion, sure. For making assertions about who "would have been elected," absolutely not.
And again, I know there were problems with the list. But it is something that happens a lot and was only reported because of the closeness of the election. I think the greater problem is the list itself, not who may or may not have gotten votes because of it, because that is guessing.
the most serious media attention given to this has been outside the US
I dunno, I saw an awful lot of coverage of this in the US at the time.
I can't say for certain that anything illegal happened, but this is a hell of a lot more serious than a stain on a dress.
Apples and oranges. There, we had evidence Clinton committed perjury -- Lewinsky saying she had sex with Clinton in a deposition for the Paula Jones case -- and THAT is what caused Janet Reno to order Ken Starr's office to investigate his affair with Lewinsky. I am not saying there should not be an investigation, but there's no direct evidence linking anyone to the kind of wrongdoing you are alledging.
Re:Some Notes
Ovid on 2004-01-13T18:15:32
Ugh. That should have read "we can make some *safe* assumptions".
It depends on what the purpose of those assumptions are. For the purpose of discussion, sure. For making assertions about who "would have been elected," absolutely not.
The purpose is exactly what I stated: we could safely make assumptions about the likely trend of voting. I didn't make any claims about who would have been elected because that would have been silly.
As for the media coverage, there was plenty: about pregnant and hanging chads. There was plenty about Katherine Harris certifying a questionable election. There was even quite a bit about the Supreme Court's actions. Still, ask the average American about the voters who were removed from the Florida voter rolls. I think you'll get blank looks. Ask the average American about DBT Online and where they got their "ineligible voter" list and you'll get blank looks. These are important issues, but they didn't get much coverage. It was the the voting and what happened afterward that received the coverage, not the preceeding five months where Harris was purging those rolls. In fact, were it not for how close the vote was, this behavior would likely have never been discovered.
As for my "blue dress" comment, you are correct that it's apples and oranges. However, unlike the Lewinsky situation, I believe (and I'll grant that this is subjective) that someone taking away the right of people to vote is a far more serious offense than someone lying about an affair. But if you read through the links I provided, you'll see that there is substantial information to suggest that crimes have been committed. But how did we get evidence that Clinton committed perjury? The Republicans managed to have prosecutors investigate Clinton's every move since early in his Presidency. That was "Whitewater". That investigation morphed into "Travelgate". Then in became "Filegate". There was a brief investigation of the Vince Foster's death. There was a bizarre investigation where Arkansas state troopers were questioned about Clinton's alleged affairs. Eventually Tripp came forward and Starr finally had something.
Had Bush been subjected to this sort of legal attention for the past several years, perhaps there would be an investigation of Florida. Perhaps we would have evidence of perjury. Of course, Limbaugh, Hannity and others would likely call this (with a straight face, no less) a witch hunt and an abuse of prosecutorial powers. I'm not saying that there should be a special prosecutor whose sole job is to investigate every facet of Bush's existence, but I have to reiterate that Clinton very possibly would not have been impeached if it weren't for the continual attention of a Special Prosecutor.
Re:Some Notes
pudge on 2004-01-13T18:59:49
The purpose is exactly what I stated: we could safely make assumptions about the likely trend of voting.
To what end? That's what I don't see. If you are not trying to say Gore would have won, then what is the point? To say that this is evidence the Republicans did it with malice aforethought? That's quite a stretch.
Still, ask the average American about the voters who were removed from the Florida voter rolls. I think you'll get blank looks.
Perhaps, but I wouldn't attribute that to lack of media coverage as much as to the average American being sick of hearing about the election. Once the SCOTUS stopped the recount, most people I know didn't want to hear about it anymore. They breathed a sigh of relief (not at Bush winning, but at it being all over) and moved on.
But if you read through the links I provided, you'll see that there is substantial information to suggest that crimes have been committed.
I disagree. I see substantial evidence of disenfranchisement, but that is not, in itself, evidence of crimes.
But how did we get evidence that Clinton committed perjury?
Via standard pretrial interviews and discovery in a sexual harassment case. There was nothing odd or untoward or unique about it, apart from the fact that the President was the defendant. And while some conservative special interests backed Jones, it wasn't "the Republicans" (in the sense of the governing leaders of the GOP), and the case clearly had merit.
Eventually Tripp came forward and Starr finally had something.
Yes, after she claimed Clinton was having an affair, and Clinton's lawyer defames her in a public interview to Newsweek, saying she is not to be trusted. So she started recording conversations so they couldn't say she was lying the next time. Dumb move by the Clintons. And even then this was in the context of the Paula Jones case. It was not until Clinton and Lewinsky were proven to perjure themselves in the Jones case that it became a part of the Whitewater investigation, as decided by Janet Reno.
Had Bush been subjected to this sort of legal attention for the past several years, perhaps there would be an investigation of Florida. Perhaps we would have evidence of perjury.
Again, no. This didn't hit Starr's desk until the evidence against Clinton was handed to him by Tripp. There was no significant investigation into Clinton's affair until this, except by Jones' private lawyers.
I have to reiterate that Clinton very possibly would not have been impeached if it weren't for the continual attention of a Special Prosecutor.
The Special Prosecutor's attention did not turn to this matter until Lewinsky and Clinton perjured themselves and the evidence of it was given to Starr. A few days laterm Reno told Starr to include it as part of the ongoing investigation.
This did not start with the Special Prosecutor. This started in a civil case with a woman who, for her own reasons, wanted to reveal some lies about Lewinsky and Clinton. Once she provided the damning evidence, the investigation by the Special Prosecutor began. To compare this to having a fishing expedition in Florida TO FIND such evidence is ludicrous.
Re:Some Notes
Ovid on 2004-01-13T19:36:28
Our disagreements about issues like this seem pretty entrenched, but this is why I disabled comments on my original journal entry. I find it far too easy to get dragged into a discussion like this, but if I'm going to get into an extended debate with someone, I'd much prefer to do it in my LiveJournal or in the @political forum. On the other hand, if I feel that way, perhaps I shouldn't post the links in the first place
:/
