I see some people want a more public role for use.perl than the mirror ball we've come to love.
I for one though, wonder if it's suitable for this role, given that the front page http://use.perl.org/ is over a meg in size, and takes 5-10 minutes on a modem connection before you can see anything other than a blank screen...
It's even slow on a broadband connection sometimes.
With those tricks, I predict use.Perl.org can get about a factor of 20 compression. The tricks work on CSS files too with a lower compression ratio. Just being able to put comments in your JS/CSS without worrying about performance makes the extra work worthwhile.<files *.jsgz>
ForceType text/javascript
Header set Content-Encoding: gzip
</files>
Re:Optimization
Alias on 2008-04-29T03:37:16
More to the point, does ANY of that shit get used on the front page?
If not, and they are just there for caching purposes, the script tags can be moved down to the end of the page just before the so that the page renders FIRST and doesn't block while it pulls the JavaScript to cache it.
Re:Optimization
Aristotle on 2008-04-29T03:56:59
When I complained about the horrendously long load times due to Javascript, pudge nitpicked my whatever it was about how I complained about it, basically told me I have no idea what I am talking about, and refused to engage the question on technical grounds to any extent whatsoever. Maybe if the complaint comes from someone he doesn’t personally dislike, he’ll actually manage to listen.
Re:Optimization
educated_foo on 2008-04-29T05:22:37
Nope. Nitpicking is just what Pudge enjoys doing, and he's really good at it, for what that's worth. As he unfortunately "runs this place," we just have to STFU and deal with Teh Slowness.Re:Optimization
acme on 2008-04-29T07:41:04
Or fork it and run your own!Re:Optimization
Ovid on 2008-04-29T08:29:31
I'm sure tons of people would love that but are scared off by the tons of mindshare that use.perl has accumulated over the years.
Re:Optimization
educated_foo on 2008-04-29T08:34:27
Not to mention the aesthetic refinement...Re:Optimization
hfb on 2008-04-29T13:12:17
Well, you know, with the so-called 'community' and its pool of people if not dwindling then certainly stagnating having five 'forks' of the same shit simply because someone needed to jerk themselves off so they could either have their own or just to shit on someone elses' stuff, you'd think somone would get a fucking clue that maybe it's not all that productive.Re:Optimization
chromatic on 2008-04-29T16:09:47
It's so nice to know that you're always right behind every volunteer with a "Thank you!" You are truly the kind, generous, sweet role model you've always said the Perl community needed.
Re:Optimization
hfb on 2008-04-29T17:50:56
I don't have to be the effusive lavisher of praise to note the pathological egotism that prevails with those who, when they either don't get their way or want something of their own, decide to fragment that which already exists. I don't know if I'd call it a community so much as a collection of mutually self-interested egotists. There's plenty I don't really like about the look and feel of use.perl, but it does the job its supposed to and I respect the time, energy and resources that Pudge has invested in it.You're just sore that the ultimate fork of a pre-existing fork, P6, remains the best thing that ever happened to P5.
:) The way things are these days, it makes me think wisfully of the kind and gentle days of TChrist and Ilya.
Re:Optimization
chromatic on 2008-04-29T18:38:00
I don't have to be the effusive lavisher of praise...In ten years, the only thing I've ever read from you online that resembled praise was "... it does the job its supposed to and I respect the time, energy and resources that Pudge has invested in it," and that was thirty seconds ago. Maybe I've missed the kindness, sweetness, and light that you spread everywhere I'm not, but I really think that much of the meanness, bitterness, and cynicism you find in the Perl community is exactly what you spread coming right back to you. (Well, also IRC. That's irredeemable.)
You're just sore that...No, I'm just certain that if you want to see kindness, sweetness, gentleness, and light from other people, you're not going to get it by berating them mercilessly and unprovokedly every random chance you happen to fly by. These are not the kinds of lectures people listen to.
Try treating the rest of us as potentially responsible adults once in a while, rather than punishing the rest of us for some perceived or real slight a decade old that most of us weren't involved in, don't know about, can't fix, have no reason to apologize for, and don't particularly care about. You might see better results.
Re:Optimization
hfb on 2008-04-29T20:00:24
Honey, I've not even been around for much of the better part of three years...really even longer than that. Do you spend your days browsing the archives?:) And I don't think I've seen you do too much other than whine about how nobody gushes over the P6 cabal. I can't think of anyone who can say they should be first to cast stones on the lack of sweetness and light. I'm not mary poppins, I've never claimed to be either. My role to play for the most part, as Gnat so astutely noted once, was to be the one to say what nobody else will. Sweetness and light doesn't exist in this small world.
What could be more stupid than to fork yet another use.perl website just because you had some sort of problem with how it loaded on your browser or something? Maybe that makes me a big old meanie for pointing that out, but at least I'm not the asshole who is always there, ready to tell whomever that their project sucks and that they're 'moving forward' without you.
Re:Optimization
Aristotle on 2008-04-29T21:12:00
And I don’t think I’ve seen you do too much other than whine about how nobody gushes over the P6 cabal.
Look harder.
to be the one to say what nobody else will.
Just because things that deserve saying go unsaid does not mean that everything that goes unsaid deserves saying.
Some dead guy who was very astute too once said “be the change you want to see in the world.” It might be gratifying to barge in at random times and berate people (for things that, by your own admission, you don’t even actually keep track of any longer), I don’t know. But if any progress ever happens, the contribution of your approach to it is guaranteed to be nil. In that sense, it is hard to see what sets you apart from the very people you criticise.
What could be more stupid than to fork yet another use.perl website just because you had some sort of problem with how it loaded on your browser or something?
A whole lot of things. And while it would be stupid to fork use.perl for that reason alone, there are plenty more reasons for forking use.perl.
at least I’m not the asshole who is always there, ready to tell whomever that their project sucks and that they’re ‘moving forward’ without you.
No, you’re just the … person … who is always there, ready to tell whomever that their desire for something better sucks and they should sit down and shut up.
Re:Optimization
hfb on 2008-04-30T00:10:20
I'm not always here but it frequently bothers me to see that things never change. It's more than a desire for 'something better' as that's a subjective guage and a frequent pedestal from which so many incursions are begun. I mean, nobody is going to be dumb enough to be honest about these things. Politics play more of a role than anything and I think you all do a far better job of bitching at each other than my rather infrequent fly-bys."No, you’re just the … person … who is always there, ready to tell whomever that their desire for something better sucks and they should sit down and shut up."Re:Optimization
Aristotle on 2008-04-30T01:18:54
So I am to understand that Adam asking whether a one-megabyte front page is reasonable to inflict on visitors was politically motivated?
Re:Optimization
Alias on 2008-04-30T01:43:16
Please don't drag me into this flamewar.
It's got nothing whatsoever to do with my actual post any more.
Re:Optimization
chromatic on 2008-04-29T21:13:03
And I don't think I've seen you do too much other than whine about how nobody gushes over the P6 cabal.If you really cared (and I have no illusion that you do), you could find out exactly what I've done in the past three years, including hundreds of commits, dozens of articles, countless answers to questions on mailing lists, hundreds of messages to mailing lists, a double handful of patches to Perl 5, maybe a dozen public talks, a couple of books, technical edits of several books, three or four releases of Parrot, the minutes of almost every Perl 6 design meeting, and, yes, a couple of dozen rants and complaints.
I'm not especially proud of most of the latter, but they're public and I won't deny them. Does everything else give me the right to complain? Probably not, but if you think all I do is whine, you're wrong.
Sweetness and light doesn't exist in this small world.No thanks to you.
Gnat also said one of the best things for the crochety old people who don't do anything other than complain anymore to do was shut up and leave. Enlighten me. Other than swoop over every few months to dump stop energy all over us mushrooms, what exactly do you do, and why should anyone pay attention to you?
Feel free to have the last word. I suggest calling me a "whiny woman-hating man-child without the brains God gave sedimentary rocks." I'll be over here, writing code, fixing bugs, mentoring new developers, improving performance, and revising documentation, just like Chris Dolan, Shlomi Fish, Andy Armstrong, and Andy Lester (not to mention Jarkko, Nicholas, Dave, Merijn, Hugo, Randal, Tom, Ilya, and countless others).
Re:Optimization
hfb on 2008-04-30T00:24:00
Oh, blah, blah, blah. I've been busy with the spawn so, no, I've not been wasting my time on such things of late. I did plenty of that in the past but, seemingly, all you remember is my few rants so...tit for tat."If you really cared (and I have no illusion that you do), you could find out exactly what I've done in the past three years, including hundreds of commits, dozens of articles, countless answers to questions on mailing lists, hundreds of messages to mailing lists, a double handful of patches to Perl 5, maybe a dozen public talks, a couple of books, technical edits of several books, three or four releases of Parrot, the minutes of almost every Perl 6 design meeting, and, yes, a couple of dozen rants and complaints."I wasn't complaining, merely pointing out that, as I've said before, you get the people you deserve by nobody ever learning how to do things like this instead of simply dividing interest and resources. I still don't think P6 will be forthcoming soon if ever because of these same dynamics that have been present since even before P6 was announced and have continued through the various projects within. When the WC awards are really, really stretching to find people to nominate, you'd think there'd be some sort of wondering as to why that might be.
What I do is simply watch and wait and occasionally comment on the more egregious things. You can put history into a wiki, but computers only remember what people tell them to.
Re:Optimization
educated_foo on 2008-04-30T04:58:58
Maybe hfb measure accomplishment in lines of code written times number of times user programs caused said lines to be executed (maybe times amount of time saved by said users). Or perhaps in words of explanation given times size of audience for said explanation (again maybe times time saved).Clearly there are other measures, but "I wrote a lot of code" and "I produced a lot of mailing list traffic" miss a lot of the picture.
Re:Optimization
jdavidb on 2008-05-02T12:41:34
I always respected the forkers a lot more, myself. They were definitely a step above the people who whined and whined and whined about how things should go and what everybody else should do.
(Please don't misread that to be in any way about you. I've only met you once and don't have you in mind at all; I'm thinking back to the participation I had in the early days of Perl 6; a participation which was a near-complete waste of time, not because Perl 6 was a bad idea, but because I was 100% unqualified for the task and I was in fact one of the whiners I am talking about. But I hope I was nicer about it than some of the others I saw.
The theory of evolution has development following billions of parallel dead-ends before finding useful advancement. That's the forkers. Yep; most are dead-ends. And it's entertaining to laugh at them!
:) But they are the ones who put some effort (usually) into what they are saying, as opposed to idiots like me who just stand on the sideline and cry like babies that they can't make the community do what they want. Re:Optimization
jdavidb on 2008-05-02T12:35:52
I don't know if I'd call it a community so much as a collection of mutually self-interested egotists.Works for me. That's my definition of community. Why should I be interested in people who don't even find themselves interesting?
Re:Optimization
pudge on 2008-05-01T22:51:04
In this case, one person lied about what I did and didn't do, one person said it is unfortunate that I run useperl, and another said tons of people would love it if I didn't.
Not that I care what they think. Assholes don't bring me down. But while I have had my own problems with her in the past, and she doesn't need my protection, hfb is the least of the problems with "role models" around here.
Re:Optimization
chromatic on 2008-05-02T00:18:18
From my perspective, the discussion had gone completely away from you and this site by that comment. I apologize for not making that clear.
Re:Optimization
kaare on 2008-04-29T08:58:17
I guess you don't want to fork the code, and it's quite hard to fork http://use.perl.org./
I recon that Perlbuzz is a fork attempt, but people still go here because of the mindshare.Re:Optimization
Ovid on 2008-04-29T10:40:48
Perlbuzz doesn't allow random people to sign up and start blogging. That's the win that use.perl has over Perlbuzz.
Re:Optimization
Ovid on 2008-04-29T08:28:11
Off the top of my head, he's the only troll I know who actually runs the site he trolls on.
Re:Optimization
pudge on 2008-05-01T22:36:34
When I complained about the horrendously long load times due to Javascript, pudge nitpicked my whatever it was about how I complained about itFalse. I argued against your actual points where you were incorrect.basically told me I have no idea what I am talking aboutFalse. I told you that you had no idea what you were talking about in certain aspects. I even said you were right about some things, but obviously wrong about others.and refused to engage the question on technical grounds to any extent whatsoeverUtterly false, as anyone can plainly see from the discussion.
Re:Optimization
Aristotle on 2008-05-02T00:20:28
refused to engage the question on technical grounds to any extent whatsoever
Utterly false, as anyone can plainly see from the discussion.
A fine claim, considering your comment elsewhere on this thread:
I just couldn’t care less to explain myself in such situations
Yes, anyone can plainly see that from the discussion.
You have literalism down to a fine art.
Re:Optimization
pudge on 2008-05-02T00:33:22
A fine claim, considering your comment elsewhere on this thread:Shrug. The discussion you linked to contained technical discussion by me. Feel free to continue to misrepresent, though.
Re:Optimization
Aristotle on 2008-05-02T01:20:22
I quoted your own words. Feel free to continue to misrepresent, though.
Re:Optimization
pudge on 2008-05-02T02:13:57
I quoted your own words.Not any that backed up your claim.Feel free to continue to misrepresent, though.I don't.
Re:Optimization
Aristotle on 2008-05-02T03:06:22
Wrong and wrong.
Re:Optimization
pudge on 2008-05-02T03:39:50
Huh. What reality do you live in where me saying that I don't care to explain myself to you means that I actually didn't actually discuss anything technical? Especially when the discussion shows that I did?
I don't really want you to explain that odd claim you're making, because I know you can't, and won't. I just wanted to point out you're being a stupid asshole, as usual.
Re:Optimization
Aristotle on 2008-05-02T04:00:52
Telling people that they are stupid, arseholes, or both, is just what you do. You didn’t have to bother mentioning your desire to do so.
The reality I live in is the one in which picking out the bits where you can justifiably tell the other person they're wrong while completely ignoring everything else is and remains a refusal to engage the question. Whether or not you answered anything technical is, again, picking out something where you can justifiably use a literal interpretation of what I said to tell me I am wrong without actually addressing the issue I talk about.
It’s what you do.
Re:Optimization
pudge on 2008-05-02T04:31:30
Telling people that they are stupid, arseholes, or both, is just what you do.Nope. I almost never do it, actually. That you see me do it as a relatively high percentage of my posts does not mean other people do.The reality I live in is the one in which picking out the bits where you can justifiably tell the other person they're wrong while completely ignoring everything else is and remains a refusal to engage the questionI didn't do that, of course, as the discussion showed.
Oh. But you probably don't mean "completely," "ignoring," or "everything else." I guess I shouldn't take you literally. You probably mean simply "not answering everything to my utter satisfaction," and to this charge, I not only plead guilty, but I do it proudly.
Re:Optimization
Aristotle on 2008-05-02T05:22:49
That you see me do it as a relatively high percentage of my posts does not mean other people do.
I read every single thing that gets posted on use.perl, not just things in direct reply to me. If I see it, others see it too.
You probably mean simply “not answering everything to my utter satisfaction”
No, that’s not what I mean. Entirely contrarily to your apparent idea of who I am, a simple “go away” would, in fact, have been satisfactory enough. You didn’t care you explain yourself, as you said, but it appears that stating this so plainly and honestly would have violated your sense of smugness, so you had to engage in a passive-aggressive dance of being right until I dropped the matter in disgust. Mission accomplished!
The thesis I stated then, namely, “I don’t use any site features that would require Javascript,” is demonstrably correct, as seen by the fact that despite having blocked all of the scripts the site loads ever since, I have had no trouble posting on use.perl (well, when it wasn’t down). And as far as I’m concerned, you needn’t lift a finger to fix the megabyte-size front page; the site works for me now the way I want it and that’s all I cared to achieve, irrespective of whether I needed to do something about it or not. I expect nothing at all of anyone else, despite the implication in your comment above.
My mistake was bringing my plight to you in hopes that you might consider this something obviously worth fixing for everyone who visits the site, instead of JFDI myself silently and getting on with life. I assumed that in the worst case you’d tell me to get lost; but in your need to stroke your smugness, you managed to be even less courteous than that. Figures that talking to you would be a waste of effort. Suffice to say, whatever unfeature is inflicted on use.perl in the future as a testbed for Slashdot (now there’s a place I really really don’t give a flying lemon about), I won’t be making that mistake again.
Re:Optimization
pudge on 2008-05-02T05:59:49
No, that's not what I mean.Hm. So what did you mean? If I am to take what you said literally, then you are living on another planet, because your description, taken literally, does not represent reality. So I gave an option of how to take you nonliterally. Have you another?your sense of smugnessWow, this is the pot calling the china black... so you had to engage in a passive-aggressive dance of being rightDitto.And as far as I'm concerned, you needn't lift a finger to fix the megabyte-size front pageAnd as far as I'm concerned, what you want has no effect on me whatsoever anyway.My mistake was bringing my plight to you in hopes that you might consider this something obviously worth fixing for everyone who visits the siteOh, fuck yourself with an anvil. Your mistake was in being an asshole to me, plain and simple.
Re:Optimization
Aristotle on 2008-05-02T06:40:29
so you had to engage in a passive-aggressive dance of being right
Ditto.
Wrong. None of that thread had anything to do with me trying to be right about anything. I wanted to know whether this issue would be fixed on the site or I would have to fix it locally. Instead of saying anything useful, you told me that I was wrong about various of my guesses. So I tried to get an answer as to whether any site features I use require Javascript, which you wouldn’t answer with a straight yes or no either.
Your mistake was in being an asshole to me
Clearly this is me being an arsehole to you.
Re:Optimization
pudge on 2008-05-02T07:00:43
None of that thread had anything to do with me trying to be right about anything.Riiiiiiiiight. Pull the other one.So I tried to get an answer as to whether any site features I use require JavascriptYou also tried to be an asshole. And you succeeded!Clearly this is me being an arsehole to you.I never said you were an arsehole, I said you were an asshole. And yes, lines like the interface I do actually use is trivial to implement without any use of Javascript whatsoever (as if you could possibly know that) and So how about giving an example of how a feature I use requires YUI stuff, instead of skirting the matter with "you don't know what it's for" hints? are good examples of your assholishness. Thanks for helping to demonstrate my case.
Re:Optimization
Aristotle on 2008-05-02T07:27:31
Right.
Re:Optimization
Ovid on 2008-05-02T06:51:33
Why on earth are you feeding the troll? You've seen him in action before and he loves nothing better than to insult people, distort their arguments and generally completely ignore valid points they have. Once he's made his mind up, he's completely unwilling to listen to reason.
Re:Optimization
Aristotle on 2008-05-02T07:39:53
Morbid curiosity about how long he can keep this up.
There is no point in trying to engage someone who thinks me a stupid asshole, of course, so past this thread, we’re done for good.
Re:Optimization
Ovid on 2008-05-02T08:00:28
Curiously, I haven't noticed comment moderation on this site in a long time, but I've already had a comment in this thread modded down for being flamebait.
:) Re:Optimization
educated_foo on 2008-05-02T15:21:49
Longer than any mere human. It's funny at first, to see how desperately he *has* to have the last word, but after awhile it just gets tedious.Re:Optimization
Ron Savage on 2008-04-29T06:40:19
Add these lines to/etc/hosts:
127.0.1.2 ad.doubleclick.net
127.0.1.2 images.use.perl.org
127.0.1.2 pagead2.googlesyndication.com
127.0.1.2 www.google-analytics.com
Errr, no, that's right, you shouldn't have to:-(.
Re:Optimization
chromatic on 2008-04-29T16:17:47
Wow. Without CSS, the site is awfully plain, but the speed is amazing.
Re:Optimization
Juerd on 2008-04-29T16:25:30
Inspired by your post, I added http://images.use.perl.org/yui/* to the list of the Adblock extension for Firefox. It's fast now, and I still have the CSS:) Re:Optimization
chromatic on 2008-04-29T23:16:32
That helped immensely. Thank you.
Re:Speed issues
Alias on 2008-05-02T07:03:54
Great, this is all I wanted to hear.
When I had to use a model to access use.perl over the weekend I wonder how on earth slashdot dealt with this problem and it seems to use some sort of optimisation and compression for the job.
I was wondering why use.perl didn't as well, as I (possibly mistakenly) thought that use.perl was your sort of beta-testing/experimental site for Slash stuff.
If you've got plans in the works to fix the problem, than I'm happy.Re:Speed issues
pudge on 2008-05-02T07:11:53
I (possibly mistakenly) thought that use.perl was your sort of beta-testing/experimental site for Slash stuff.No, that's correct, but in this case, we had some changes and the urgency of fixing and scale of problem dictated that we work on Slashdot directly, and as the issues are primarily not in the Slash code (though related to it), they just never got "backported," and then with the new network and hardware coming, I just didn't devote my own resources to bother doing it at all.
I just got my cryptocard for the new network today. We'll be getting the new hardware soon. Huzzah!
Re:Speed issues
Shlomi Fish on 2008-05-04T17:16:19
Hi Pudge!
First of all, let me thank you for all the work you've put into use.perl.org and making it what it is today. I really appreciate it and I think I speak for most of us.
In any case, I decided to start wiki page concentrating the problems that we currently see with use.perl.org. Everyone can contribute to it, even without registration. It's not meant as a "Why use.perl.org sucks" page, but rather as a checklist for what to improve so the site will be better.
You can also use the attached discussion page.
