gbarr writes "Since announcing the search beta site a OSCON we have recieved several feedback messages. Some have suggested changes, which we appriciate and most will be implemented. But many of the messages were just requesting it to become search.cpan.org. So by popular demand the switch will happen this weekend." Sweet!
Re:CPAN is Unusable
belg4mit on 2002-08-10T05:12:24
I dunno, I don't find it too hard to
mouse-over and look at the status bar.
It's a technique anybody that's surfed
the web for a decent amount of time
should have accquired.Re:CPAN is Unusable
osfameron on 2002-08-10T07:57:06
I think I disagree. The search results page gives you 2 links that are barely differentiated: for exampleThese should be differentiated (download, docs).Looking at the status bar while hovering over the link doesn't help either:
(On a different topic, I also wish that there was still an option to see all hits on one page.) seehttp://search.cpan.org/author/LEMBARK/Quantum-Superpositions-1.05/lib/Quantum/Su perpositions.pm
vs.
http://search.cpan.org/author/LEMBARK/Quantum-Superpositions-1.05/Re:CPAN is Unusable
gbarr on 2002-08-12T11:23:29
Due to the nature of the search now it is not practical to show all results on one page. However there will be an option to increase the number of results you seeRe:CPAN is Unusable
jdavidb on 2002-08-13T15:23:29
- Quantum::Superpositions
- Quantum-Entanglement-0.32
You know, those make perfect sense to me. The first is the page for the module (offering an abstract, author info, links to the docs and tarball, etc.), while the second is the tarball for a specific version of the module itself. I'm just guessing; now I'll click over there and see if I'm right.
Re:CPAN is Unusable
jdavidb on 2002-08-13T15:25:20
Oddly enough, I'm wrong. The first is the docs for the module, while the second is the page for the module with links to everything else.
But I don't anticipate that will take more than a day to get used to.
Re:CPAN is Unusable
krellis on 2002-08-10T14:16:42
If it sucks so much, do something about it! Mock up a "better" version. If people like it, find out from the appropriate people what kind of templates they need, and provide them! I'm sure something helpful would be much better received than "this sucks. But I won't tell you in any specific manner how to fix it. I expect you to do so."Re:CPAN is Unusable
petdance on 2002-08-12T17:06:33
Or, in the shorthand form: "Patches welcome."Re:CPAN is Unusable
Theory on 2002-08-10T19:55:21
I'm not sure what the issue here is. The download links take the form of a(n admittedly small) disk icon. Everything else appears to be links for docs, browsing, etc.
But if you want to make suggestiongs, I suggest you use the feedback form. Graham is very responsive to comments right now.
--David
Re:CPAN is Unusable
hfb on 2002-08-10T22:08:10
So click something and figure it out or use the other search engines listed on the front page of CPAN. I've not finished the new FAQ but, then again, the old one with pictures and arrows with detailed explanations didn't seem to help that guy out before so I wouldn't expect it to help him or you now. Be adventurous...go ahead, click a link and live a little.
Re:CPAN is Unusable
jdavidb on 2002-08-13T15:20:42
Or, in the words of MJD: "You know, this sort of thing is amenable to experimental observation," and "What happens when you try?"
Heh, getting to hear MJD record his ENTIRE "file of good advice" at YAPC was a treat. You guys just got the parts gnat selected; I was there for the whole thing.
After the "unusable" lightning talk, I did remember my first experience with search.cpan.org (which came almost two years after my first experience with CPAN, I'm guessing). I remember being slightly confused. And I remember figuring it out. Maybe I'm just weird that way.
(Figure it out) Re:CPAN is Unusable
osfameron on 2002-08-14T15:13:06
Quite a few answers here are along the lines of "figure it out", "hover over the link", "you'll soon get used to it".I agree (sort of). That's what I did too, and yes, I love CPAN too.
But I also disagree. search.cpan.org isn't (just) a tool for developers, for the kind of person that enjoys trying all the options to figure something out. (And no, I don't think jdavidb is "wierd" for being this kind of person, it's a great type of person to be.)
But not everyone is like that, and I didn't realise that CPAN was aimed only at this audience. I thought is was also for, for example, accidental programmers who are handed a task by their PHB; that it was designed to encourage them to take a step in the right direction by trying to incorporate good quality, reusable, code. The alternative being rolling their own kludged version: I think we need to support this audience too.
The mantra of "Just deal with it, hey I did!" does not help someone who is still unsure of what a module is, and why they would want to use one. I would suggest that it doesn't help the Perl community if a newbie gives up on CPAN and writes buggy insecure Perl code that Java programmers will laugh at.
I wouldn't complain about PAUSE, or any of the rest of the structure involved in developing Perl. I get confused with cvs but that's my problem. CPAN, on the other hand, is (or IMHO should be) a service for Perl users as well.
Re:(Figure it out) Re:CPAN is Unusable
jdavidb on 2002-08-14T16:08:40
You have valid points, but I think I (and many others) have an as yet unspoken assumption here: you could change search.cpan.org, but it would not inherently be any more obvious. We can have users figure it out one way, or figure it out a different way, but I don't think I've seen any proposed rearrangements that make the situation any better.
If there is a more intuitive way of laying out the site that eliminates some of the "figure it out"-iveness, then will someone please prepare an HTML mockup?
The mantra of "Just deal with it, hey I did!" does not help someone who is still unsure of what a module is,
For a user in that state, I don't think search.cpan.org is going to be their biggest obstacle. Even if search.cpan.org successfully guides the newbie through its stated mission of finding a useful module, reading its description and documentation, and downloading, the user will still not really know how to use what he has. That's going to be a much bigger problem than accidentally pulling up the documentation link when you wanted the download link. If you make search.cpan.org easier you have spent 80% of your effort to fix less than 20% of the problem.
I have been in that state. The solution was time and education. Does anyone know someone who has been stuck in that state for, say, over a year? The accidental developer can take steps toward quality and reuse, as you say, but he cannot do all of these on his first program. No amount of changes to CPAN or search.cpan.org can make his first program of that quality. CPAN is not a magic wand that makes good programs; you have to have a good programmer for that. (In related news, yesterday I read In the Beginning was the Command Line; check it out and note the part about the Hole Hawg.)
Unless we have evidence that people are having trouble with search.cpan.org on an ongoing basis, the site should be targetted at those who have to live with it long term. No sense changing it to fit the newbie when the newbie soon changes to be an experienced developer and would like it differently.
Re:CPAN is Unusable
dc2000 on 2002-08-20T22:49:39
I think a significant number of people see a code snippet in
the Cookbook or on Perl.com, try it out, and are
discouraged when their code snippet fails because it uses a
non-standard module.I'd like such people to find a gentler introduction to
adding modules to their distribution than clicking around
in circles. Offering an easier CPAN is I think better direction
than dumbing down public code, eg(from nms).Any contributed scripts must therefore follow certain rules:
They must not use any non-standard Perl modules.
I know this is a bit contentious, but I really
think that the target audience will have
problems installing modules from CPAN
search.cpan.org is amongst the most obvious presences of
and entry points to CPAN, hence my interest in improving
search.cpan.org.(I'll save my views on division of labour between finding
problems and offering improvements for another time.)I'll post some style=newbie mockup before YAPC03.
eg, could be used as
http://search.cpan.org/search?mode=module& style=newbie&query=RSSRe:CPAN is Unusable
dc2000 on 2002-08-12T15:34:05
The new search.cpan offers an improvement in the presentation
of.pmdocumentation pages; they now have navigation and
a textbox for a new search.
Also, the
.pmfile now offers a link to the true.pm,
appropriately enough labeled as source.Compare the before and after.
Re:CPAN is Unusable
bart on 2002-08-12T21:51:23
Also, the.pm file now offers a link to the true .pm, appropriately enough labeled as source.
No it doesn't. It offers the same possibilities as `perldoc -m MODULE`, meaning:
- If the pods and source code are in different files, you'll just see the source for the
.pod file, not for the .pm file — see Parse::RecDescent for an example - You can't see the source for modules that don't include POD. For example, there are two such modules coming with Archive::Zip.
Re:CPAN is Unusable
gbarr on 2002-08-12T23:34:00
Have you tried it ?
If a module has the POD and code in.pod/.pm files, the source link will shoud the .pm file, not the .pod file
Also, you can browse ALL files in the distribution, so you can see the source of modules that dont have POD
Please research before you post what you think are factsRe:CPAN is Unusable
bart on 2002-08-16T22:23:52
Have you tried it ?
Please research before you post what you think are facts
Yes I've tried it. For example, this link to Parse::RecDescent used to display just the POD. I am absolutely, 100% sure, I've tried it several times over a few days time. And now, it displays the Perl source code. Odd. But a lot better.
Fortunately the old beta url still works...
laptop:~> nslookup -sil search.cpan.org
Server: 63.203.35.55
Address: 63.203.35.55#53
Non-authoritative answer:
Name: search.cpan.org
Address: 195.184.238.178
laptop:~> nslookup -sil search-beta.cpan.org
Server: 63.203.35.55
Address: 63.203.35.55#53
Non-authoritative answer:
Name: search-beta.cpan.org
Address: 66.37.215.58
laptop:~> lynx -dump "http://search.cpan.org/"
[mutatus.gif]
_________________________________________________________________
  ; © Copyright 2002 Mutatus Technologies
Re:"Mutatus Technologies" ?
Elian on 2002-08-11T01:56:02
There was a DNS glitch. It's been fixed, but it may take some time for your DNS servers to clear out the old, bad information.
