Andy Dorman writes "Openweb Analysts Ltd, which specialises in using Java and perl components to build complex websites, is now offering free consultancy to London based firms considering Open Source solutions for web development.
Companies and government bodies who are thinking of using free software can now contact an expert for advice. They should email advice@OWAL.co.uk with an explanation of their business and their interest in open source. They will receive a response examining potential open source solutions for their business. Those companies most able to benefit will be offered a free face to face meeting to discuss it further."
What is advertising doing on use.perl.org hidden as a story? Who is Openweb Analysts Ltd? Why are there no names on their website? Why haven't they ever come to a London.pm meeting or talked on the London.pm list or IRC channel?
May I suggest that anyone really interested in web development in London ask London.pm or perhaps even the mod_perl list.
Re:Who?
pudge on 2002-02-19T17:13:51
It's interesting that the other times we've posted about firms offering consulting no one complained, but when the firm in question is from London, well, I get all of London.pm complaining about it.:-)
It's a fair cop, but in general we've posted notices from companies offering services, especially on a slow news day (which is most days:-). We could revisit that policy, I suppose, and welcome discussion of the issue.
Re:Who?
belg4mit on 2002-02-19T19:52:21
Is it that much of issue? I mean granted
personal preferences/ethics/whatever
aside, how many people that would use it
read this site? My guess, none. Pretty
any much reading the site is clueful
enough or knows somebody clueful enough
to do it themselves. So I view it as
amounting to job posting of sorts, it
names a company that does perl stuff.
EOSRe:Who?
alexmc on 2002-03-25T12:07:15
A practical solution would be to add a section or topic for professional perl / OSS companies so that it is clearly labelled as such and can be excluded by users if they wish.
I honestly thought my press release was news worthy because I knew of no company in London offering such a useful service. Sorry to have caused such a fuss.Re:Who?
vek on 2002-02-19T21:36:51
Why haven't they ever come to a London.pm meeting or talked on the London.pm list or IRC channel?
Er, I've no idea, but what has that got to do with anything? Since when did you have to do any of the thing's you describe in order to offer Perl consulting services? Are you saying that in order to legitimately offer Perl services in London you have to 'ok it' with London.pm - it's supposed to be Perl Mongers not the bloody Perl mafia:) Re:Who?
acme on 2002-02-20T09:36:21
Right. I may have been unclear about what I was trying to say. I was just suprised to hear about a new Perl consultancy out of the blue. Perl people don't have to be part of the community, but, generally it helps. I know that my Perl knowledge is better because of Perl Mongers and I'd rather that people join the group (and use the very talented people inside the group) than people we haven't heard of. I'd welcome anyone who is vaguely interested in Perl in London to come to the next London.pm meeting.Re:Who?
vek on 2002-02-20T13:37:28
Sorry, I think I mis-read the tone of your post. You don't need to sell me on the idea of why being a Perl Monger is a good idea - I'm all for that - and now I see that was the point you were trying to make. It's just that you made it sound like people had to have (a)gone to a PM meeting (b)posted to the PM mail list and (c)spent a decent amount of time hanging out on IRC before they should even think about offering any form of Perl services in London. Almost as if they were pre-requisites of "Perl qualification". I agree that one's Perl knowledge can be increased via Perl Mongering (been there, done that) but you don't have to participate to be a good Perl coder.
I also understand why London.pm are pushing the "but a lot of people write crappy perl code, if they were a part of Perl Mongers we could educate them on the error of their ways". Honestly, a bloody great idea but there are some very good Perl coders (I know of some personally) that haven't been to one PM meeting nor hang out on IRC all day. Doesn't mean that these individuals shouldn't offer Perl services...
Re:Who?
2shortplanks on 2002-02-20T13:57:05
Honestly, a bloody great idea but there are some very good Perl coders (I know of some personally) that haven't been to one PM meeting nor hang out on IRC all day. Doesn't mean that these individuals shouldn't offer Perl services...
No, certainly not, but if they don't come to Perl Mongers then it makes it harder for me to buy them beer;-) Re:Who?
vek on 2002-02-20T15:04:52
LOL:-) Re:Who?
2shortplanks on 2002-02-20T09:49:15
No no no, you're getting it all wrong...London.pm always likes to meet new people involved in Perl in London. And we like to help them in their quest, publicising their buisness, etc.
I guess I'm saying it makes a lot of sense for people like this to come along to meetings and stuff and let us all know what their about (face to face as it were) so that anyone there (for we don't act as a group - we're a collection of individuals after all) can:
- Take advantage of their company ourselves
- Think of anyone we know who we can recommend them to, both for free and paid work
Of course, they could be snake oil. I seriously doubt it, but I simply don't know. What I'm suggesting is that it would be great for them to come along, meet us, for us to see what great people they are, and see what we can do for them.
London.pm website: london.pm.org
London.pm mailing list: http://london.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/london.pm
Leader email: leader@london.pm.orgMark (just another member of London.pm)
Re:Who?
vek on 2002-02-20T13:43:53
Right, right, right - Perl Mongering is a good idea, although not a must, as I mentioned to acme.
Re:Who?
alexmc on 2002-03-25T12:09:21
This is Mark of London.pm who bought me a pint last time I made it to a pub meeting, and got a free perl book out of it...Re:Who?
hossman on 2002-02-19T22:41:38
It's not advertising, it's a press release. And you can't really ask why it's being passed off as a "[news] story" because it isn't in either the News Topic, or the News Section -- it's a "Link". Just something out there people might be interested in.No one complained that "Dan Needs Fundraising Contacts" was listed as "News"
... why complain that this is listed at all? Re:Who?
autarch on 2002-02-20T16:03:42
A press release is more or less advertising, except that the goal of a press release is to get the advertising for free from the media.
Not that I object to seeing this press release, mind you. Its on topic for use Perl and the fact that a company is offering Perl consulting services is probably of interest to the community.Re:Who?
hossman on 2002-02-20T18:17:41
ad·ver·tis·ing
n.
- The activity of attracting public attention to a product or business, as by PAID announcements in the print, broadcast, or electronic media.
Unless their slipping pudge something under the table, people should stop complaining.
Re:Who?
autarch on 2002-02-20T21:35:47
I wasn't complaining. I don't care.
But you are misreading the dictionary defintion. It is not stating that advertising _must_ by definition, involve payment.
It is simply using "paid announcements" as one example of advertising.
If I put up a web site and let others put banner ads on them, those ads are advertising whether I demand payment or not, because those banner ads are engaged in "the activity of attracting public attention to a product or business", right?
Re:Who?
hossman on 2002-02-20T21:52:24
1) i wasn't refering to you regarding people complaining.
2) if you put up a website with a lot of banner images that linked to other peopls sites, those wouldn't be ads: they'd be links. no different then if you were writting a review of a Dell laptop and you included an image of the laptop and made it a link to Dell's website -- if you aren't getting paid to do it, it's not an ad. You're just providing a helpful link.
Re:Who?
autarch on 2002-02-20T22:17:02
In regards to #2, you are simply wrong.
Haven't you ever heard the term "paid advertising"? It is not redundant.
But if you don't believe me, go to _another_ damn dictionary and read it with your own eyes!
Advertising is completely orthogonal to payment.
When IBM (I think) spraypainted Linux stuff on San Francisco sidewalks without paying the city, that was advertising.
When I voluntarily (without pay) put up posters a benefit concert for an activist group I'm involved with, those posters were advertising, even though they were put up by someone for free in locations where no payment was required.
You need a whack with a cluestick (or a good dictionary).Re:Who?
hossman on 2002-02-20T22:28:27
I guess we just have a fundamental disagreement about the definition of advertisements. I do think the term "paid advertisement" is redundent.
I would consider your IBM/Linux example to be grafitti, and your poster example "notices" or "promotional material"Re:Who?
alexmc on 2002-03-25T11:46:54
> What is advertising doing on use.perl.org > hidden as a story?
We thought it was newsworthy so we posted it. We are encouraging the use of open source software in London - got a problem with that?
> Who is Openweb Analysts Ltd?
> Why are there no names on their website?
There are - they just aren't prominent.
> Why haven't they ever come to a London.pm > meeting
We have! but only one because they have the pub meetings on the same day sas the science fiction pub meetings! Doh!
> or talked on the London.pm list or IRC channel?
Er - I do the former but don't IRC anymore. I used to about ten years ago.
Companies are not always happy about going to a mailing list - sometimes they want another company to talk to. I have even redirected one company recently to the london.pm list where I didn't know how to solve their perl problems.
Alex McLintock Openweb Analysts Ltd
There are a number of people in london.pm who own what we could describe as "open source consultancy companies". I'm sure we'd all like to get free advertising via use Perl; but we don't submit advertising copy posing as stories becuase we think it would be unethical.
But whilst we're here:
Come to Magnum Solutions for all your Perl consultancy, development and training needs!
Re:Hey Look - Free Advertising
alexmc on 2002-03-25T11:59:05
Dave.... If you had bothered to look at my website you would find a slash topic dedicated to open source experts... open to anyone (preferably UK based) who has demonstrable skills in OPen source. Why not submit your details to that site?
I object most strongly to the suggestion that my posting was unethical. I ought to point out that I did email Dave my press release because I mistakenly thought he was a different London.pm perl programmer called Dave who I had discussed this with.
Those companies most able to benefit will be offered a free face to face meeting to discuss it further.
OK
/J\
Re:Er
pudge on 2002-02-19T21:51:30
I have business meetings via phone sometimes, and via IRC just about every week.Re:Er
alexmc on 2002-03-25T12:00:18
I have had business meetings by phone - and interviews by phone - and presentations over the internet. By adding "face to face" I am pointing out that we are willing to turn up and meet people.
I've been thinking about this overnight I think my initial post may have been a little hasty. Here's what I now think[1]:
Hope that's clearer. Apologies to pudge for getting angry about it.
[1] And if anyone's unclear, I should point out that I'm not speaking officially for london.pm or anything like that.
Re:Cold Light Of Day
alexmc on 2002-03-25T12:02:39
I would welcome people like Dave working with me to help find more clients. I don't get the impression that London.pm is for that at all. It is much more a social and technical self help group for individuals rather than companies.
Would Dave please stop pretending that I am not on the London.pm mailing list and don't drink beer with London.pm people. I *have* done it - just not very often.Re:Cold Light Of Day
alexmc on 2002-03-25T12:13:16
Tell you what Dave -Are you going to be at the next London.pm pub meeting? Thusday 4th April? Same pub as last time? I'll buy you a beer to apologise for sending you mail by mistake. Ok? Truce?
